NOT Church!

[Snugs]

Following on from the Church thread and our conversations there?

Ok ? I am a witch. I am out of the (broom) closet. I thought long and hard before posting on the church thread, but did feel the need to correct some misconceptions about my religion (rose to that bait on a previous religious thread as well).

Even with the anonymity of our nicknames, I was wary of reactions. I have posted on previous threads that I am a pagan, but never that I was a Wiccan. It is an unfortunate fact in today?s society that I feel the need to not openly discuss my religious choice. I do wear a Pentacle around my neck in the way that many Christians wear crosses, and tend to leave it to the observant few to question me if they wish.

Ionesmum - ?Witch-hunts? still happen ? I have Wiccan friends who work in schools, hospitals and Social Services and they all keep their religion a secret ? not because they are ashamed but because they are only too aware of the reaction they will get if they are honest. In one case, someone decided to inform a friends employer that he was a Wiccan ? and he was hounded from his post and accused of child abuse! How extreme is that?

Fear is a terrible thing but it is often based in ignorance of the facts. The image of witches that is generally portrayed is one that the Christian Church invented (I am talking about the church as an establishment) many hundreds of years ago and had more to do with forming a patriarchal control over society than actual religious choice.

I expect that I have opened a real can of worms here ? and would not be at all surprised if I get no replies posted on this thread ? but since some of you have shown a genuine interest in my beliefs I am here if anyone wants to ask me questions or discuss this further. I am always up for a good theological argument

Snugs - I'm so sorry that wiccans are still persecuted for their beliefs today. I know it's not the same but I think that all faiths are regarded with suspicion in our secular society. Christianity is always a good subject for a laugh, too.

I found a way to express my spirituality through Celtic Christianity. Although this is a very different belief from wicca, it does have the same respect for the natural world. I think that it is because of this that I have respect for where you are coming from. Also, with the Celtic church being the first British Christianity, the legends and shrines from it are enmeshed with the pagan ones.

I agree - there are great links between the Celtic Church and Christianity. And it is not really that different from Wicca - Wicca is linked to the Celts BEFORE the 'church' existed.

The Celtic Church was the first British Christianity in the sense that it was the first organised church and that the name of Jesus was superseded over the old gods names, (the actual belief was that they were one and the same). Pagans simply worship in natures church ? the open air - and continue to use the old names. All the Wiccans I know would argue that stories of Jesus and His Father are simply a reworking of our own legends, minus the feminine aspects.

Many Wiccans previously worshipped under a different religious ?hat? (an ex-Roman Catholic friend springs to mind) and have simply returned to the old ways ? it doesn?t mean that they have a totally different set of beliefs.

Sorry, waffling now.

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Snugs - what exactly do you mean when you say you are a witch? What does this mean? Is that just the name of a pagan who worships or does it involve more? I am just unfamiliar with the term.

This really interests me. Organised religion is not for me, but Wicca comes closer to my beliefs than most religions. I am a believer in nature, and in the human spirit. I don't feel I need to conform to any ideas of a particular relgion - it's just not something I want or need in my life.

I really AM a witch here I also don't understand what being a wiccan means Snugs, could you tell us more?

I too was surprised to hear that Wiccans are persecuted for their beliefs in the workplace. I thought religious discrimination was illegal in this country.
I am also interested in Snugs' telling us more about paganism in the modern world. I'd like to know if Wicca is recognised as a faith for the census and for legal reasons such as discrimination law - if not, why ever not?
I'd also like to know roughly how many Wiccans there are in the UK.
Do tell us more, Snugs, this subject is so often sensationalised or trivialised in the media. And I guess it is a subject dearer to many of our hearts than we might imagine: weren't a lot of the women persecuted as witches actually the equivalent of the community midwife in the 17th century?

robinw - how witches are portrayed throughout history is precisely why I started this thread - to try to correct misconceptions.

The stories of evil doing and satan worship are rooted in misunderstandings, rumours and gossip - most of which was started by the established church. When I say 'church' I am talking about the establishment, which as I have said before was more about politics than religion.

As to our attitude to evil - yes it does exist, but it resides in humans. Mankind have an inherent evil streak - you don?t hear about wars, or murder, or pure nastiness in the animal world. Killing there is purely for the sake of survival and food. And I use killing as just one example of evil.

And yes we do believe we can influence people - but only in the same way that Christians and other faiths believe in the power of prayer.

Wicca and Witch are 2 words, which come from the same old English root ? originally meaning 'wise' or 'wise one'. But I actually do prefer to call myself a Wiccan, again because of the misconceptions. Even my dh, who has no problems with what I am, still loves to crack jokes about me flying off on my broom and wearing a pointy hat

Marina ? yes as far as I am aware, religious discrimination is illegal. However, the case I spoke of was fought on the grounds of accusations of child abuse, totally false accusations that were fuelled by gossip. Eventually my friend resigned and moved from the area rather than put his family through more abuse from the community ? typical outcome of a modern witch-hunt.

And the truth is, I haven?t a clue if Wicca is officially recognised ? never really thought about it before. I would have thought that under discrimination laws the government would have to recognise it ? or else be seen as discriminating! Shall do some investigating tho!

And yes, many midwifes were persecuted as witches. In fact any woman who was known to have knowledge of plants, herbs and healing of any sort. Men were also witches, yet few are mentioned in the witch-hunts ? probably because they had money and held positions of power in the community so were safe from persecution.

Scuse me ladies ? waffling again. Habit of mine on a subject close to my heart.

Sorry for seeming slow Snugs but, does that mean that anyone who practices or follows Wicca is a witch?

Pagan Essay Part II J

First ? Tinker, technically yes. The two words mean the same thing. Wiccans tend to refer to our ?path? as The Craft, rather than witchcraft ? it is personal preference.

Pagan is from a Latin word meaning country dweller. People living in towns were more likely to convert to the accepted state religion, i.e. the established church, whereas the country people were more likely to follow the old ways. In mainland Europe the heath dwellers similarly became known as heathens. Thus the NON-Christians became known as pagans or heathens but generally it means followers of the PRE-Christian religions.

Paganism has many branches. Druids and Wiccans for example are very similar, yet very different ? like Church of England and Roman Catholics within Christianity. Different branches of Paganism may worship different deities. We have many gods and goddesses ? although we really see them as just different aspects of the whole (this is quite complicated )- Mother Earth and Father Sky to give them general names. Different deities (or aspects of) rule different parts of the year ? based on seasons and equinoxes rather than calendar months.

Witchcraft underwent a revival in both the late 1800s and in the 1950-70?s. In the Victorian era it was the Golden Dawn that brought witchcraft to the fore. One of the main figures was Aleister Crowley, a twisted man who unfortunately is often remembered amongst non-witchcraft circles for his links to Wicca - more bad imagery. This is my personal opinion and is not shared by all Wiccans, many follow Gardinerian Witchcraft - in the 1950?s books were published, in the main by a guy called Gerald Gardiner claiming to have the knowledge of the old ways, but also having links to the Golden Dawn. This type of witchcraft is very ?high magic? and emphasises the ritualism; it involves High Priests and Priestesses. (I actually have problems with this branch of witchcraft ? I find it is all too often the cause of harm because it plays on fear and power of others). This was then revived during the sexual revolution of the 60-70?s ? mainly again because of the theatrics of it and because of the control element. IMO very cultish - and not what the Craft is really about.

Many of the horror movies of the 70?s portrayed witchcraft and Satanism as the same thing ? the Black Arts. Fiction can be a wonderful thing ? but it is fiction.

Hmmm ... think I should shut up now

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I don't think that the example of a fox in a chicken run can be used as an accurate portrayal of animal nature. It's not natural for a fox to come across several dozen birds, more-or-less served up on a plate to him/her.

Snugs, the bit about Mother Earth/Father Sky is reminiscent of what little I know of Native American beliefs. Is there any similarity?

Our newspaper, The Jakarta Post, had a half page article about a Muslim witch, just recently. They seem to be regarded as part and parcel of everyday life, just like the jamu (medicine)lady, who mixes strange looking liquids to cure all your ailments. There seems, from my limited reading, to be quite a lot of parallels between the Christianity/Wicca world and Muslim/mystical world but the difference is that here no one gets in a flap about them.

robinw - I disagree - the old religions do not draw people wanting power. Some of the revivalist religions (Gardinerian as I mentioned for one) may but the majority are just the opposite - the last thing we would ask for would be help for ourselves, only for others.

And I still think it is like prayer - we dont expect any particular outcome to our requests (spells), but believe that the goddess will provide an answer in the way she sees fit. In the same way that prayers aren't always answered, sometimes the goddess leaves us to figure out our own solutions to lifes problems. Isn't that what prayer is all about?

Marina - I cant find anywhere to tell me exactly what is a 'recognised' religion. As far as I am aware Paganism is 'accepted' if that is the same thing. Estimates on the Pagan population of the UK vary between 50K and 200K, but since it is often a 'hidden' religion, maybe there are many more.

I found this BBC site which might make it all a bit clearer than my clumsy attempts have.

SueDonim - yes there are many similarities with Native American beliefs; again it is a case of the old religions. I believe that all religions probably have one original root (see Bibles, Religion and other uncomfortable topics, post 3/7/02). Some simply stay closer to the source and each other whilst others have deviated more widely.

The Jamu lady would probably be called a witch if she lived in this country and still practised her arts.

I'm finding this really interesting as my knowledge on the subject is non-existent!

On the issue of employment discrimination - at present,it is not unlawful to discriminate on grounds of religion in Britain (Northern Ireland does have anti discrimination employment legislation in place). The Government is going through the consultation process on how to legislate against employment discrimination based on age, religion and sexual orientation.

Snugs - I don't have any problem with who you are, but just following on from a point you made in the other thread about Halloween, I don't think your postings were ignored because you are a Pagan either. I often post things that do not get responses, but just put it down to the fact that no-one has picked up on a point in my posting to comment on! As you rightly say, many aspects of Paganism affect our lives, as it is one of the oldest religions and part of our culture and ancestry.

As a Christian, I hope you don't mind, but I tend to try not to celebrate anything Paganism, not because I find your religion offensive, but I would not celebrate anything Muslim or Hindu either. When we have Christmas it's very much a family occasion with more emphasis on Christ's birth, we do not have a Christmas tree and presents are basic. I know it's not the real date of Christ's birth, it's the festival of light is it? But we choose to celebrate Christ's birth on that day as we see him as the 'light' of the world.

Unfortunately no matter what our religion, race or colour, we will be persecuted as someone will always have a problem with it. Whenever I get JW's at the door, they are very friendly until they find out I am a Catholic, then they feel it is their right to tell me exactly what is wrong with my religion and how we, as Catholics, are all ignorant - I have even been accused of being a Pagan myself! You just have to rise above it.

I think it's good that you are open to questions and are ready to explain your beliefs. So long as we remain open-minded about everything we shouldn't go far wrong!

snugs and everyone else, I've only just skimmed through this thread, and it's so interesting!!!

got to go now, but will look forward to reading it properly asap.

Rhubarb - I know, I was in a very defensive mood when I commented on being ignored.

And of course I have no problem with people not wishing to celebrate my festivals - I wouldn't expect to celebrate theirs (in the case of Christmas I actually celebrate Yule, which starts a little earlier). I was reacting more to the misconceptions of what Halloween is about rather than the fact that people dont wish to celebrate it.

And as to JW's - had a wonderful 45 minutes last week having a 'discussion' with them. Of the 2 (are they always in pairs?) 1 at least knew what I meant when I said I was a Wiccan - but the other was terrified when it was explained that I was a witch. Think she expected to be turned into a frog on the spot

I just hope that I dont come over as preachy or trying to convert anyone - far from it. As you say, I am simply trying to be open about my faith.

No offence SueW - I do the same with my kids. If I cant make fun of it all, who can?

The funniest part was after the JW's left. I chatted to my mum on the phone and told her all about it. 2hrs later dh comes home from work, worried expression on face and asks 'why is there a huge red cross painted on the front door'. I was half way across the room to check before I twigged he had spoken to mum. Now him I will turn into a frog

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robinw - nice site you found. I was trying to give some very basic background detail with the sites I mentioned and the BBC one does give a good overall description. There are so many sites on this subject and many have very personalised views, which can differ widely.

As to the child abuse allegations - it was a few years ago and I don't think it ever got as far as 'legal' accusations. It was all rumour, gossip and innuendo - all entirely false - started by one person saying he was a witch, satanist and paeodophile (because in that persons eyes they all go together). It all made it very difficult for my friend and his family to stay in the community. Having bricks hurled through your windows on a regular basis is not a nice atmosphere for raising a family.

just managed to read both the church and non church threads. Phew. Isn't a pingu video a wonderful thing when you need a little peace and quiet to concentrate?

I haven't any pressing spiritual questions to ask you snugs, but when you can spare the time, and as long as you don't think this is too intrusive a question, I'd really like to know in outline
how your beliefs get put into practice in family life. ie what's it like to be a wicca mum? Thanks

Gosh tigermoth, thats a difficult question.

At the moment the main thing that probably has any effect on the boys(5yrs and 16mths) would be my ecological principles; they are already very 'green' - ds2 picked up a juice carton in the park today, promptly jumped on it to flatten it and put it in the bin

The majority of my 'worship' in the sense of festivals, rituals etc are at night (the moon being a representation of the goddess) so often the boys aren't even aware that mummy has gone out so no explanations needed.

I have a small altar in my bedroom which they know not to touch - it's just mummy's 'pretty things'.

I do have discussions with dh about how we will handle the subject of religion when they are older. It hasn't really come up before, but now that ds1 is at school I may need to prepare some answers to difficult questions - so far I have only had to deal with 'Christmassy' questions and Baby Jesus. Hopefully it wont be too much of a problem since so many of our traditions are shared - Ostara (Easter), Samhain (Halloween), Harvest Festivals, Yule (Christmas) etc. Oh, and whenever wicked witches are mentioned in stories I manage to work it in that there are good ones too.

I don't want to actually raise them in my faith - I will be happy if they have an understanding of what religion in general is about, then they can make their own choices when they are older. I guess I will just have to wait for the questions to start and then answer them as honestly as I can.

Sorry, not sure if all that waffle really answers the question.