Church

[crystaltips]

How many of you are avid church-goers?
How many of you want to go to church but never seem to have enough hours in the day?
I feel a great draw to our church - but with a young family it's a toss-up between making an appearance and a couple of extra hours in bed

Whenever I DO go I always get a kind welcome - and a few "welcome back" comments.

Is it enough to think kind, spiritual and "christian" thoughts ?

Thank you all for your replies. What a pleasure it is to have fellow Christians on mumsnet.
robinw-I will almost definitely use the discussion approach when dd is older.
musica-the St.Paul's verses did occur to me. I don't think there is anything sinister in all but the smallest minority of Halloween celebrations but I was more concerned with not feeling comfortable with the celebration itself.
ionesmum-I hear what you are saying but feel Halloween is slightly different to Christmas trees etc. In a subtle way one is condoning the dwelling on witches, ghouls etc. The other pagan symbols are without any spiritual dimension that can be misconstrued.
Haven't decided how to handle this yet and thought I would think about it while we are away for the next two weeks. I basically don't feel comfortable with going and will probably go with that. I knew when I had children that I would face difficult decisions in bringing them up Christian in a secular society but I didn't think it would start at 15 months!!!! Thanks again everyone.

I guess it all depends on what you see as 'celebrating'. I don't see that dressing up and bobbing for apples (sorry, Snugs) is celebrating Halowe'en any more than non-Christians having presents and turkey on December 25th are celebrating Christmas. I agree with Robin that it's a good opportunity to discuss what really is scarey and evil. I've had a couple of bad experiences with the Occult myself (which is not the same thing as paganism IMO) so will be very careful of what dd is exposed to. One very devout guy from our church also Morris dances, which have their origins in ancient Pagan rites.

However, I also feel very strongly that we have to do what we feel comfortable with. Mog, I have exactly the same fears as you with regards to raising dd - how can we love our neighbour when half the things we buy will have been produced in exploitative conditions - and that's just for starters! I really admire anyone who stands by their principles!

No apologies needed Ionesmum - dressing up and bobbing for apples are not a part of my Samhain celebrations.
And thank you for acknowledging that the 'occult' and paganism are not one and the same.
I am glad at least that you had the decency to recognise that a pagan had posted on this thread since it appears that everyone else has such a big problem over a 'pagan festival'. I get the strong feeling everyone else is making a big effort to ignore me.

Snugs-sorry you feel like that. I couldn't reply to everyone's comments so chose three that spoke really strongly to me. I deliberately put my posting on this thread as I didn't want to get into a debate on this issue but just wanted to find out how parents with the same religious beliefs as myself dealt with difficult situations such as this one.

I appreciate that you dont want to start a dispute Mog and neither do I. I simply thought that since the problem, from reading others comments, appears to be the 'paganism' aspect then a truly pagan viewpoint might have been useful.

I am pretty sure that I am the only pagan posting on this site (or the only one that talks about it anyway) and admit that I do get a little defensive about my religion sometimes - it is after all a religion despite the attitudes of many christians towards us.

And when it comes to dealing with tricky situations, think of it from my side. My sons will grow up in a society where witches are portrayed as dark and evil for the most part. Since my pagan path is that of Wicca, I am technically a witch (oh I can hear you all screaming and running for cover as I type). I dont believe in raising children in religion, it is for them to choose their own path when they are old enough, but I do find it hard to correct the impressions they have shoved at them by society.

Snugs, I'm sure that you have gathered from postings that I am a Christian and I freely admit that I know very little about pagainsim. I do know that it is very often confused with the occult but it is a totally separate thing. I thought that Wicca were also known as White Witches and apologise if I am showing my ignorance. My objections to halloween are purely to do with the worship of the devil. Which I know to some may seem a stupid thing to be worried about when all that is happening at a party is young children dressing up in red leotards with horns, but from little acorns and all that! And I have learned tonight that pagans don't beleive in the devil, I don't want to start a row but would be very interested to know the basis for your religion, as I said I am quite ignorant in that and didn't someone once say that the path to understanding comes from knowledge?

lilibet, yes you are correct - wiccans were (and are) known as white witches - although the white part is generally something added in recent years to try to seperate ourselves from the peak hatted, hooked nosed image of an evil hag that is used to portray witches. As I said, we dont believe in the devil and so therefore the idea of us worshipping him is totally false.

Paganism is difficult to describe in brief terms - as with christianity there are many branches.

In general there is a believe in both Father 'God'(s) AND Mother 'Goddess'(s) - we are not patrichial. We are very 'green' in that we love all aspects of nature and the earth - they are the bounty of the Father and Mother and should be respected.

I am off to bed now as too tired to think straight but please feel free to ask me anything you want to know - although we may need to start a new thread - I dont want to be accused of hijacking a church thread with my evil ways

Snugs, I've always fancied being a 'white witch', but never really found out anything about it. Could you advise me on books or websites that I could read that take the whole thing back to basics?

Will have to study my bookshelf as I am terrible on names and titles - will get back to you on that one.

As to websites - there are many excellent sites, but also many truly dreadful ones as well. I have not really come across a good 'beginners' site yet (but then again I haven't been looking) so will ask around my friends for suggestions.
One site I have recommended in the past is Beliefnet , which is a brilliant site for all faiths, hosting serious forums and message boards etc., but also taking a look at the lighter, often funny side of religion.

Paula1 - One book I can think of just now - A Witch Alone by Marian Green.

Can I just say - and please don?t take offence at this cos none is intended - that Wicca is not something to be played with. It is my religion and I would not like to think that people were purely interested because of the 'witchy stuff' (Sabrina and the rest have a lot to answer for amongst naive teenagers at the moment). If you really are keen to learn more, post again and I will offer any assistance I can.

I'm a teacher as well as a Christian and each year I go along to the school party, dressed up. I don't have a problem with having a party at halloween but I do have some issues about the kinds of costumes that children wear. So long as you are not 'celebrating' halloween but having party fun (games etc) with other children then I would imagine that it's OK.

PS I adore Harry Potter and can't wait untill the next film is out. Dd is only 15m so don't have the excuse of taking child along.

Snugs, I have a great deal of respect for paganism because of its respect for the natural world, something that Christianity often ignores. I think that for centuries wiccans and Christans lived happily side by side, until the witch-hunts, and I don't see why we can't now. I don't want my dd to be scared of things that she doesn't need to be.

Snugs - I am very interested to know more about paganism. I have always been interested in ALL religions (think of myself as a christian but don't belong to a church) as religion has so much to do with society and the history of society. I do not know why people are so frightened of paganism or indeed any religion that was around before christianity. One of the most interesting books I ever read was 'The Source' by Robert Mitchener (I think that is who wrote it - took me about 2 years to read). His interpretation about the very start of religion is fascinating.

Christianity has only been around for 2000 years - I don't think we should forget about what went on before that ...

Thank you ladies - I must admit I was expecting a cry of 'burn the witch' when I posted on here

I have started a new thread ? ?NOT Church!? so if you want to discuss?.

Is it;

Ri-ise and Shi-ine
and give God the glory glory

If it is, all my sympathy!

Rozzy - a horse - really??? It does sound good fun though.

Hilary, I can't bear that one either, but Number One on my all-time hate list (and it's a similar one) is Shine Jesus Shine - I really have to sing it through gritted teeth!

Snugs, I wasn't thinking of playing! Just interested, not at all interested in other forms of religion though, so not sure how I would go on - I'll have a read of the book and let you know. Also, never watched Sabrina or Buffy or any of those other things!

Some of those choruses we used to sing in the 80's sound really awful now (they were pretty bad then). I think Shine Jesus Shine was good at first but then we ended up singing it 6 times per service and it got boring, like a record overplayed on the radio. Anyway, I really don't like Graham Kendrick's music. Sorry, GK fans.

Paula1 - as I said, no offence intended; I wasn't suggesting that YOU were playing, just being wary because of past experience of people showing an interest only to either ridicule me or to 'play' at something they dont understand. See 'NOT Church' thread if you still want to discuss

My all time worst, I think, is

Be bold, be strong, (do you know, I have finally managed to blank the rest of the words out of my memory...yippee!)

Also, at a youth camp we help at each summer, we sang a song a lot this year which went,

'Surely...you are the son of God'

but when sung it sounds like 'Shirley, you are the son of God' and, no offence to any Shirleys out there, this doesn't fit with my theology!

We used to sing 'If I Had a Hammer' at secondary school assembly. The music teacher thought it would be more 'relevant'. Aaaaaaaargh!!!!!!

Re Shine Jesus Shine, the children all love it, but their favourite is 'Sing it in the Valleys'. My ds starts playing air guitar and doing double knee slides down the aisle when they play that!
My personal favourite of the more modern hymns is 'Eagle's Wings', based on Psalm 91.
You can find it here