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Original poster

Church

163 replies

crystaltips · 24/08/2002 21:51

How many of you are avid church-goers?
How many of you want to go to church but never seem to have enough hours in the day?
I feel a great draw to our church - but with a young family it's a toss-up between making an appearance and a couple of extra hours in bed

Whenever I DO go I always get a kind welcome - and a few "welcome back" comments.

Is it enough to think kind, spiritual and "christian" thoughts ?

OP posts:
Mog · 03/09/2002 14:53

Jodee, Just so you don't feel like the only one, when I first became a Christian I was living with my now dh. Until we had that situation sorted i.e. got married I too abstained from communion. It was just my way of letting God know that I was working something through and took it seriously. Hope this makes sense.

ionesmum · 03/09/2002 16:33

Jodee, when I started going to church my mum came with me sometimes. She never took communion as she felt she'd been away from the church for so long. She waited for quite some time before she felt happy about receiving it. I hope that you didn't think that I was critisising. As far as confirmation is concerned, I regarded it as an opportunity to renew the vows that were made for me when I was a baby.

jodee · 03/09/2002 19:08

Musica and Ionesmum, absolutely no offence taken! On the contrary, it's very interesting to read others' thoughts and experiences on communion and church life in general, so thank you.

Mog, thanks for your honesty too!

Rhubarb · 03/09/2002 20:50

I'm an RC and the way I see it is that Communion is Jesus' way of giving us all a hug. It is his chance to enter us spiritually and the closest we can get to him physically and emotionally. The reason why unconfirmed and unbaptised people cannot go to Communion is that the Church feels that they do not have adequate understanding of how important the Sacrament is. By getting baptised or making your communion or confession is affirming your belief and pledging your alliegance to God and condemning Satan as your enemy, if you are not willing to do this, then the Church does not think you are ready to receive such an important Sacrament.

This is only in the RC Churches, I cannot vouch for the other Churches but expect their reasons will be the same. Of course you can be spiritual and not want to belong to any particular church, and Jesus would not deny you that closeness because of it, but Communion is also about sharing and I believe faith is meant to be shared, not kept locked away like an embarrassing secret.

These are only my views by the way, meant to be taken however you like!

ionesmum · 03/09/2002 22:17

Rhubarb, the children at our church who take Communion attend months of lessons at the Rectory taken by his wife, they complete a work book to show that they have an understanding of their faith. I had my first Communion during my preparation for confirmation and I can promise you that I was well aware of the significance of what I was doing! However, I have no problem with someone taking Communion who has only just started on their journey - I don't see any rules about it in Acts, for example.

ionesmum · 03/09/2002 23:05

jodee I love sharing ideas and thoughts about our faith on mumsnet, I used to belong to a study group but it's stopped now and I really miss talking things over with other believers.

robinw · 04/09/2002 07:33

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ionesmum · 04/09/2002 14:07

What bit do you have a problem with? If it's the part when Jesus is asked about divorce for 'any reason' that should have capitals. Any Reason was something that was brought in by one of the Jewish religious groups and at the time that Jesus was teaching was very popular. Men were able to divorce their wives for the most spurious of reasons and this was causing outrage. When Jesus was asked if he disagreed with divorce for 'any reason' it is now believed that this is what he was referring to. So this does not change the Torah's teaching on divorce in the O.T. that allows for divorce in cases of adultery or ill-treatment.

When you say that you've done Bible Study do you mean just reading the Bible? Or did you use various commentaries and books like the one you mentioned to get different ideas on the text?

Rhubarb · 04/09/2002 15:27

Didn't Jesus say that if you divorced because of adultery you should not re-marry? He allowed divorce in cases such as adultery or violence, but he was quite strong on re-marriage, only widows and widowers could get re-marriage. I think the doctrine of the Bible is marriage for life.

ionesmum · 04/09/2002 21:43

I know what you are saying, but many Christians find themselves in marriages that are intolerable to them and I do know people who have prayed and agonised about this and come to the conclusion that their marriages should end. The theologian Karl Barth wrote about marriage as vocation - that God intends two people to be together and that if we mistakenly marry the wrong person then we are not married in the eyes of God. He also said that if two people are intended by God to be together but are living together whilst unmarried then God would see them as married anyway. Barth wasn't a liberal at all, far from it. It's an interesting idea and one that I think isn't a million miles from the Catholic idea of anullment - I have a friend whose marriage was anulled on the grounds of her youth when she took her vows.

robinw · 04/09/2002 21:47

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robinw · 04/09/2002 21:49

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Rhubarb · 04/09/2002 22:12

My mum got an annulment and she and my dad remarried, which is allowed in the Church. However an annulment is VERY hard to get and these days the Church takes the prevention route. In order to get married within the Church you have to attend a series of classes which are meant to test your knowledge and compatability. If your priest does not think that either person is committed to marriage 100% he can refuse to marry them, although this rarely happens.

As for non-believers, it is said that we will be judged on the Last Day in Revelations by the deeds that we have done whilst on earth. God will show himself in the Last Day so that everyone has a chance to repent and accept Him. I can't see God turning his back on a non-believer who has dedicated their lives to doing good for example. He is a merciful and understanding God after all.

ionesmum · 04/09/2002 22:18

Robin,the current view being put forward in the C of E is that people will be allowed to remarry in church if they are the 'innocent party'. I don't believe that God intends us to be miserable and alone just because we were stupid enough to marry some faithless person who disappears with someone else. We are human and will inevitably make a mess of things but God sees what is in our hearts; and of course he is ever merciful, I don't believe he looks too harshly on someone who truly loves another.

My views on the afterlife have caused some controversy here before, but here goes! The conventional view among most Anglicans thatI have spoken to about this is that we all ultimately can be saved, but some very evil people are so bad that they will turn away from God and will be anihilated. We will all go through a process of judgement and will be made 'clean' and this will apply to unbelievers as well. I'm a universalist - that is, I believe that everyone will be saved. This is because that I believe God is so powerful that at the end, no-one will be able to turn away from him, however evil - even Satan will be saved. (A few hundred year's ago I'd have been burned as a heretic!) I personally don't know anyone who believes that someone who has led a good life will be damned simply because they don't believe. God is just and merciful - there are so many people even in this country who never have the opportunity to hear his word, I do not believe that they would be condemned so unjustly. Also there are the people who lose their faith because of something awful that happens in this life, and those who lived before Christ was born.

The study that I did was with Oxford Brookes University, it was really interesting. For each essay I'd have to use maybe a dozen or more books, and so get a real overview of the subject. I also attended a local group which was run by the Diocese.

ionesmum · 04/09/2002 22:22

Rhubarb, I know that anulments are very hard to get, I hope that I didn't sound as though I was trivialising the issue.

BTW someone showed me a set of lessons for couples wishing to marry that some well-meaning group has devised for priests to use and it was hilarious. I don't think dh and I would have stood a chance - but we celebrate our 10th wedding anniversary tomorrow!

Rhubarb · 04/09/2002 22:45

Oooh Ionesmum - you went to Oxford Brookes?? Did you happen to notice a college on the same road as the union bar called Plater College? I went there!

ionesmum · 05/09/2002 12:53

Sorry, Rhubarb, I was a distance learning student!

Original poster
crystaltips · 05/09/2002 18:30

Thought that this might be the right thread to give you this information.

www.spiritualparenting.com/

It's a webstite in the US that helps us focus on the more spiritual side of family life.

It might be of interest to some of you

OP posts:
XAusted · 05/09/2002 19:55

Happy Anniversary to Ionesmum! (And Ionesdad!) Congratulations on reaching double figures. 10 years is quite an achievement these days. Did you get to celebrate?

robinw, there's no way of knowing who will be in heaven or who won't! Only you or I can know our own relationship with God. I've heard people say that when we get to heaven we'll be surprised at some of the people who have got in, and some of those who haven't! In other words, God does not judge by our standards.

musica · 05/09/2002 20:08

Ionesmum -congratulations! It's our anniversary today too - but only 4 years in our case.

ionesmum · 05/09/2002 21:42

Thank you for the congrats! Actually we've been together for 16 years - in fact over half of my life! We celebrated by going shopping and having fish and chips!

Congratulations, too, musica!

Crystaltips, thanks for the site, will definitely check it out.

robinw · 05/09/2002 21:50

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ionesmum · 05/09/2002 22:01

Robin, I don't want to be blunt but I think that your sil has problems. There's a vicar like hers around here and it causes great difficulties.

I take your point about the Gospels but surely there biggest message is one of forgiveness? Leaving aside all issues of interpretation etc. if we do get things wrong we are forgiven for them, and I truly find it hard to believe that God would not treat someone in this situation with great mercy. Even more importantly, people shouldn't judge. A friend of mine got divorced and her fellow church memebers actually shifted their chairs away from her like she was contagious. They were of the 'everyone but us is damned' school of thought, too.

jodee · 05/09/2002 23:10

Congrats, Ionesmum and Musica! You can't beat a really good fish n chip supper, can you!

Oh dear, not the 'what happens when we die?' question again! This is probably where Ionesmum, Rhubarb and I start spitting nails at each other (joke!). I agree there are many in this world who are utterly selfless, helping the poor and needy, who put me to shame, I can tell you. But all their good works count for nothing if they haven't accepted Christ as their personal saviour. And many who call themselves Christians spend much of their time gossipping about so-and-so whose marriage is on the rocks etc. etc. I see the point you are all making. But if all can be saved in the end, what was the purpose of Christ's death and resurrection?

robinw · 06/09/2002 07:42

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