Guns, Guns, and Guns the good, the bad, the evil!!! continuance on difference between UKand US

[Leati]

Last night we were talking about differences in our cultures and one thing that kept coming up was guns. It appears that alot of you are appalled by the lack of Gun control in the US and the consequences. 49% of US households have a gun.

My perspective as a US citizen is there a basic reason people keep guns.

1. Police and Military...use in job
2. Hunting
3. Protection
4. Sport or Collector
5. Criminal Activity

I think most of you would agree that Police and Military probably need guns for thier job so that is not really up for dispute.

Next, is hunting and outdoorsy living. Ranchers, farmers, and people who hunt usually have rifles for those purpose. There are a small percentage of citizens who still hunt to put food on the table. Very few gun accidents or crimes come from this group of gun owners. It generally believed that that is because it is a way of life for these people and they have taught gun saftey since they were tots.

Protection, these are the people who probably live in crap neighborhoods and are afraid. Unfortunately, this is the group that has the most child related accidents.

Sport or Collector, this group mostly consist of a bunch of over egotistical men who have guns to show off, or because they can. I really don't know what the rate of accidents and criminal use, with this group is.

Then there are the criminals. These are the people who usually buy guns illegally anyway. Then they file off the guns serial number so there are no chances of tracing the guns origins. United States has many gang problems and it not uncommon to hear of these guns being used to scatter bullets at someones home or an entire group of homes. This is also the group that is most likely to hurt innocent bystanders.

So this is the layout, of the reason why our citizens feel they need guns. As for outlawing guns it would be nearly impossible, because it is a "right" protected under the constitution. This means that even if our lawmakers passed a law, our judicial system would throw it out. When you add to that NRA (natinal rifle association) is a powerful and large force to be reckoned with and they throw money at certain political parties it would be even more hard.

My perspective. Alot of people in our country still hunt and a small portion of those people actually count on the meat from hunting as a food supply. My parents own a couple of rifles that they keep in a gun safe. They have used them on several occasions to scare off coyote that are attacking thier animals. They have also used guns to kill rattlesnakes that have are in a position to cause bodily harm to a person. I do see the need for guns among this group.

I have a handgun for "protection." It was a compromise between my husband and myself. I really didn't want guns in my home but he was raised with them in his and felt it was necessary. The compromise...the gun is in a locked box...with a trigger lock...and the keys are kept in seperate locations. Personally, if someone broke into our home, I would be more like to use a can of pepper spray.

The sport or collector... these are the people who want automatic and semi-automatic guns to show off to thier buddies. They serve no purpose.

Finally the criminal, most of the guns they have are illegal anyway. They have been smuggled in from other countries or stolen. They are dangerous but even with stricter gun laws this group of villians would be able to get thier hand on guns.

Coming from Texas that is a real tough change. What surprises me the most is guns on police officers. I have traveled to other countries where police officers are carrying big rifles and found my response similar to yours. I found it intimidating but I never found a holstered handgun intimidating.

I also find it interesting that hunting guns are allowed. How does your country keep those guns from becoming a hazard?

The class of five year olds is devestatingly sad . I can't imagine the grief. We have had similar cases, here as well.

saltireslytherin
Personally, I don't hunt and think it is kind of gross. But I am Native American and hunting is a deeply imbedded part of our culture. Of course over the years Native Americans have become more main stream but many believe that it is the only fair way to kill animal. I don't personally know anyone who hunts for sport, if they kill it they eat it.

I'm from Texas. And when we lived in Latin America, there were just as many guns, unfortunately mostly in the hands of drug dealers, rebels, corrupt armies, etc.

I first fired a weapon when I was 6 on a friend's land and regularly went to firing ranges. We were taught to use guns responsibily - caring for them properly, where ammo was stored (separate from the guns), how to remove ammo safely, how to repair a jammed weapon, gun safety, etc.

I owned a Glock 9mm. My dad gave it to me when I was 18 from his stock of weapons.

I had permits in both Texas and Colorado.

When I was 14, I was home alone when the police helicopters started flying over our neighbourhood, illuminating peoples' yards.

I knew what that meant, a fugitive on the run.

So I went to my parents' cupboard and got the Glock. Went into my dad's armoir for the ammon.

Just in time! The fugitive was trying to break into my bedroom window.

I called the police and let them know what was happening, but that I had a loaded weapon and was going to kill the individual if he managed the enter the premises.

It didn't happen - our windows only went up a couple of inches after my dad took some security measures after we were burglarised - but I'm glad I was familiar enough with firearms to be calm and know w what to do.

Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it!

I do think it's a good skill to have, to know how to properly use a gun.

But I understand it's not the done thing here.

expatinscotland
I think it is safe to say people like you are not the problem. It is the person who has never owned a gun and suddenly decides they need one for protection that is the problem or the young drunk guy showing off that is the problem.

True story...My brother and a bunch of his buddies decided to move together to Las Vegas. There were all working together as painters as the Las Vegas Race Way. One night they all got rip roaring drunk and the youngest guy in the group decided to go get his (supposedly unloaded) handgun. He is swinging it around, pulling the trigger, and acting like an ass. Another guy in the group, grabbed the gun pointed at the first and said "how do you like it." The next thing they all knew the gun was fired and the first young man was dead. The second young man went to jail for involuntary manslaughter. My brother still has nightmares about what he saw that night. The saddest part is they were brothers and the older will never forgive himself.

OMG, Leati, that is truly horrific!

It is one of the reasons, I am personally torn on gun issues. I see thier usefulness but also see thier destructiveness.

Only read the OP. But regarding police needing guns for their job. This is really not such an assumed fact in this country. Most police are not armed still.

And I am that you have a gun for protection. OK you have the keys in seperate location etc but if someone broke into your home it would be useless. So why have it? what sort of area do you live in?

OK will read thread now.

This thread has opened my eyes to the huge grey areas around gun ownership in the us. I am so saddened by your brother's story Leati.

I think the current status quo is acceptable in the UK - and the increasing levels of gun crime are a concern but do not warrant any change to this. Guns = death to me and nothing will change my mind on that.

I must go and do parenting now and stop neglecting my duties, but thank you for educating me Leati.

The gun in my home is really a compromise. When I got married, I realized that it was a partnership and I don't get to set all the rules. My husband felt strongly about having the gun, I felt strongly about not having the gun. The compromise was two locks, up high, with keys in seperate location. Personally, like I said before I have pepperspray.

My neighborhood isn't really to awful but it not great either. It is kind of hard to explain but where I live the good and bad mix up a little bit more than other areas.

I was an au pair in Texas and one of the oddest (culturally) things was the idea that guns were the norm. I was glad that the family I au paired for did not own a gun.

Expat do you feel unsafe now that you do not have a gun? Or do you feel OK because the gun culture is less prevalent here?

I can see how that would seem stange to you. It was as strange to me the other night when some of the other users on this site started asking about guns.

It two in the morning here so its off to bed for me. Have Fun Talking!

Many more people in the USA die in accidental shootings than in self-defense incidents.

I have a cousin lives in California. Before her son can visit a friend's house she has to meet the parents and grill with the following questions:

"Do you have a gun in your house?"
"Is it locked up?"
"Who has access to the keys to the gun cabinet?"
"How can you be sure none of the children will get hold of the keys?"
"Where are the bullets stored?"
"Are any of the guns stored loaded?"

And so on. I think law in some US states actually prohibits guns being kept in access to minors, but plenty of people ignore the laws.

Please, Please, I never want to live in a country where I have to quiz other parents about these things before letting my child play around theirs.

I am an California native, btw.

Horrified that sensible and intelligent people and mothers would ever buy the terrible myth that guns PROTECT. They do not protect any more than any other weapon. They were designed for the sole purpose of killing, maiming and threatening other living things. I can think of no circumstance where these things would be justifiable on moral or any other grounds. If you feel the need to kill and eat animals there are more humane ways. If you feel the need to hunt for pleasure then this is vile. Police advice is never carry a weapon for 'protection' because you are actually much more likely to have it used against you.

The only cases I have heard of police in this country using a gun in recent years have been to kill innocent people like De Menendes and that Irish man who police thought had a gun when he actually had a table leg.

Need any more convincing? Hungerford. Dunblane. Columbine. The American university last year (name slipped my mind). My morality says it is wrong to take another human life under any circumstances but these are cases where innocent people (CHILDREN) are killed by people who are psychlogically disturbed and have been influenced by American gun culture.

I would never allow my children to enter a house which contained a gun. My children are not allowed guns or weapons as toys because there is nothing remotely playful about a machine built to destroy other life.

''Here is my nightmare scenerio, my child goes and visits a friend whose parents are vigil with locking their guns. One of the kids plays with it and the next thing you know a child is hurt.''

My dd's friend was killed like this. In the UK. By an air rifle fired accidentally.

Leati - I raised the issue of gun control last night on your thread.

I find it odd that the US would run a programme teaching children the dangers of taking sweets from a stranger, and about good/bad touch, yet it has a huge problem with children being murdered whilst at school and chooses not to revoke the laws around gun ownership.

It all seems so very hypocritical.

I agree with you TnOgu. A country which such issues with gun control, childhood obesity (a much bigger threat to kids than stranger danger), carbon emissions and which bombs the hell out of other countries is probably not the best role model for child protection.

TnOgu and Hurricane

I think it is naive to beleive that a few mothers are going to protest guns laws and the government will go and change the laws. You don't understand our government at all. The most important document in the United States government is the constition and an extention of that document is the bill of rights. It protects the rights of our citizens and no law can be passed that is deemed unconstitional. There are three branches of government.

The Senate - Makes Laws

President - Has Veto Power over Laws

Judical Branch or Supreme Court - Decides if laws are constitional

So you see laws in our country have to go through vigorous test. The senate has been able to successfully pass laws limiting the type of "arms" that can be owned.

Below is the rights protected by the bill of rights

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

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Amendment III

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

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Amendm ent IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

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Ame ndment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

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Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

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Am endment VII

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

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Amendm ent VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

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Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

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Ame ndment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Hurricane

I have to disagree with you opinions on hunting. To say that it more humane to slaughter animals than to give them a fair chance at getting away seems crazy. It also tells me that you really don't know much about animals raised for this purpose.

Sow
There are 500,000 breeding sows in the UK. The majority of these are kept indoors. Until recently, sows were confined in Sow Stalls. These are barred stalls barely larger than the sow so she is unable to turn around. Sow Stalls are still commonly used outside the UK. They have concrete or slatted floors with no bedding.

week before intensively kept sows give birth they are moved into farrowing crates. Farrowing crates are metal crates barely larger than the sow, giving no room for turning around. The sow can only stand up, lie down or suckle her piglets. Any attempt at movement means the sow will unavoidably rub herself against the crate bars causing sores, abrasions and swellings. Sows will remain in these crates for 3-4 weeks until the piglets are weaned.

Disease
Intensive farming methods have lead to increased disease problems; these are particularly prevalent amongst piglets. Viral pneumonia, meningitis, swine vesicular disease, blue-ear disease, scours, infertility and diarrhoea are just some of the diseases that can affect pigs

Does this sound more humane to you?
Don't misunderstand me if you want to go down to the grocery store and buy meat I don't care but to justify it by saying it more humane is not right.

Finally, do realize that one buck will provide a family with meat for year. For some families hunting is not just about fun. One last comment...I've never seen wild game meat sold at the grocers.

We could do with the 1st Amendment here in the UK - "or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press".

Of course the Americans want guns. They are a huge country with lots of space, animals, wilderness much much less sophisticated and indeed behind the times than the UK and most of Europe with their history of cow boys and some very simple people living there. Obviously they therefore hang on to their guns. Our police can police the 60m people here in the UK without guns on the whole and as there are few guns to be had we have fewer deaths and murders. This is one reason most of us choose to stay in the UK rather than move to the US.

Noticeably sadly when there are suicides if it's a farmer or someone who hunts and has a licensed gun they often use that or if there is a row with the wife in the UK she might get punched but in the countryside where there are guns she may well end up dead because of the fact there's a licensed gun around. Guns are harder to find in this country although criminals will always know where they are to be had.

Many guns are in fact a penis extension so that says a lot about the US psyche. Anyway each to their own.

Xenia

Are you intentionally trying to be insulting. First, my father committed suicide while I was six months pregnant with my first child and I find your casual comment cruel. And just so you are reassured, he hung himself from a tree in a park. It was the single most painful moment of my life.

Second of all for all your sophistication, if read my comments you will realize that I would never speak of someone in the outrageously rude manner that you just did.

Thirdly, if you quadrupled the number you just said, the United States would still have a larger population. 301,139,947 you can verify that. California alone has 36,457,549. That is a lot of people for our police force to govern.

Lastly, I am always up for a friendly debate but slinging insult at each other just for fun is not my cup tea.

Sorry if I was harsh but Xenia's comments were meant to piss me off and she suceeded.

I said the US was different because it was larger and often rural hence more likelihood of guns. Without doubt large numbers of the Americans are very stupid indeed as we all know ni the US.Look at the supprot for Bush. Look at how many believe dinosaurs were planted there by God to test their faith and how many think the planet is about 6000 years old. You don't get more stupid than that. So clearly being retrograde and thinking rights to carry guns are a good idea go with that.

I am very sorry about your father. My father and brother are psychiatrists and suicide was a constant feature of our lives as children and very very sad.

If there are not guns around people dont' use them. It's very simple but anyway we have choices - we choose to live here in a culture where guns are rare and we love it. The Americans love their guns. Thank God for the Atlantic.

Most Americans don't blindly support Bush unlike ex prime minister Blair. He did not even when the popular vote in his first election. I just think it is odd if you really believe and I quote, "Of course the Americans want guns. They are a huge country with lots of space, animals, wilderness much much less sophisticated and indeed behind the times than the UK and most of Europe with their history of cow boys and some very simple people living there."
I think you can find very simple people living in just about every corner of the Earth. The cowboy thing really throws me. I believe that you are refering to the settling of our frontier and yes it was pretty bad. But I don't think it was any worse than any other part of history. The simple fact is, when you go back a couple of hundred of years, people were cruel to each other. They shipped slaves across Europe and to the US. They slaughtered entire tribes of Native Americans so that they could have access to thier land. They smashed the skulls of Native American babies with thier boots because they didn't want to "waste" ammunition.
I think you forget that we share a history and thier were no guns on this continent until British and Spaniard explorers brought them here.

Leati - You live in a very different culture to me, I live in Ireland, which also has it's social problems.

However, I don't feel the need to extol the virtues of my country, hold it up as an example of how to do anything, we exsist in the 'world' with all the responsibilities that brings to ourselves and others.

I don't feel that I'm niave, I'm just different in my outlook to you, perhaps on many things, I don't know.