I'VE LOST CONTROL

[johnnydeppsmistress]

I have totally lost control with my 4 year old. She is either very nice or sweet or very horrible and nasty - there is no in-between. She is a very angry child who rules the roost. Whatever method I try with her (ie time out, rewards etc) it never works.

She will cry for hours if that's what it takes for her to get her own way. She is violent and pinches, kicks etc. It has got to the point where I cannot control her. Last night after another tantrum and aggressive behaviour from her I tried to suffocate her. I am too scared of asking for help in case she is taken away from me.
I love her but also hate her when she has her tantrums which have become more and more frequent. I don't know what to do. I have not told my husband yet.
Is it abnormal to have these feelings, if it is how do I get help without involving social services?

Go see your hv if you still have one. My 4 yr old ds has bad behavior and we were reffered to a specialist. Its not a bad thing to admit you can't cope. You obviosly need help and you need it fast for your sake and your dd's. Talk to your husband. Or even phone a helpline. If you would like a few suggestions on her behavior then look in the behavior section and find the thread thats calle toddlers-what do you give time-outs for. I have left a suggestion on there about controlling behavior. Hope it will help you. But i do feel you need more support. Cat me if you like

I think that you do need to get some help, but I would start at your GP and ask for a referral to a child behavioural psychologist. I think that you will need to go as a family. Some of that behaviour is not abnormal, but if you get to the stage where you are trying to suffocate her, things are getting beyond your control and you need some help to deal with her behaviour and your reactions.

Do keep posting and pick up the phone now to start the ball roliing with your GP. I wouldn't mention the trying to suffocate, but just that you have aggressive reactions to her.

You need to confide in your dh so you can all work on it together.

Good Luck and let us know how you get on.

I agree with beachyhead. Just tell them that you Got a bit agressive. If you tell them that you tried to suffocate her as they will bring social services in. Good luck and lots of {{{{hugs}}}} Parenting is'nt all that easy

I can relate to this absolutely. My eldest (aged 7) is an absolute nightmare at his worse - all that you describe and more, and has been for nearly 5 yrs. I went through my HV - a bit ineffective in my particular case - and finally went to my GP, a fantastic person, who was horrified I'd not come to her sooner. We're now seeing a child psychologist and about to talk about anger management. As she put it - if your partner was like this, you wouldn't stay with them.
I would say go and see your GP or HV - whoever you feel more comfortable with - and say that you would like to be referred. Hope it goes well.

Thanks for that. The problem is that she is a perfect child when in most social situations and I feel that the GP or HV would not believe me. Wouldn't her behaviour have to be obvious or be able to be monitored by a third party in order for me to get help?

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Supernanny? Try contacting her through the programme's website? They will put you in contact with other agencies if Jo can't help you herself.

Children are highly skilled in provoking a big reaction from their parents if they set their minds to it - sounds like you could do with a 3rd party to suggest some tactics and give you some support - in a few weeks time this will probably be sorted once someone else is supporting you through this tricky phase.

No, they will believe you. They don't need to see the behaviour, just to talk about it. A friend had a DD who was causing huge problems, none of which were in front of other people (outside the family). By outlining the problem to the GP and the therapist, they will pick the right questions to ask your dd to try and see what is causing this. They may also do a seperate session with you.

Do talk to your dh - if necessary, tell him to come home from work. I think this is important enough and call the GP now to get the ball rolling.

You've done the best thing by airing this - now you just need to get the support network going.

GP's are there to help - it's not in their interest to ignore you.

My GP was happy (if that's the right word) for me to just explain what's been going on. If you can think of some specifics when she's been at her worst, it may be more helpful. Re third party being there - hard to engineer, and very stressful as I think you can be more conscious of whether you're doing the right thing or not when dealing with it.

Have you tried cranial osteopathy? An unhappy child might be that for a number of reasons, one of which might be an imbalance/physical problem that she can't articulate. It might be an idea to start with that rather than involving other agencies whose involvement you cannot then control.

You need help fast. Do please see your GP. They will believe you if you say you cannot cope and feel angry towards your daughter. This is quite serious. I think a really, really consistent approach may be more use than trying lots of different methods and then eventually giving in, but first you need some outside help I think. Can you describe some situations that make you feel out of control? Are you overstressed generally? Do you go to work? Do you need more support in other areas?

JPM are you there - hope all of this is helpful and hopefully you can make the first step towards a resolution this afternoon. Just take a deep breath and give your GP a call. Try to go on your own and tell them it is urgent so that you get seen soon.

Good luck and keep posting

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Hi aloha, yes I do get stressed easily. I work part-time at home but I hate my job.
The situations that stress me most are when I have tried to discipline her (ie time-out etc) and she still continues to have a tantrum. If she is naughty I try to shut her in her room for 3 or 4 minutes. She will not stay in there unless I physically hold the door shut. Same with the "naughty stair" - she will simply not sit on it! If I threaten to take away sweetie day she just mimics what I have said and pulls faces - she has absolutely no respect for me. She also hits her older brother for no reason.

This may sound crazy but I knew she was going to be a handful the minute I first felt her move in my womb! She used to kick with such force that I always told people "this one's going to be trouble"! As a baby she was very serious and rarely smiled. On the other hand she can be adorable and will just come up to me and tell me she loves me for no reason, give me a hug or help me in the kitchen. When she was conceived she was very much wanted but I still find that I favour my son. I have no idea why. I blame this on her behaviour but maybe it is a vicious circle.
My husband says that starting school will "sort her out". My son also had tantrums, although not as severe, and became a different child after starting school - he is now an angel!

My first thought is that you might have had a form of depression when you were pregnant - it's not that uncommon apparently, it's hormonal and no reflection on you as a person. The negative thoughts you had about your baby before she was born make me think that. And of course, they turned out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think you are right when you say that her behaviour and your feelings towards her are part of a vicious circle that I am sure you can break though you might need some help. Children are perceptive little things. You say you favour her brother and that she hits him. I would bet those things are connected - and truly, I'm not saying that to blame you. She probably senses she has to work harder for your love and isn't as secure in it as she might be. This will lead to attention-seeking, challenging behaviour. Not that even the most secure children in the world don't challenge their doting parents sometimes. Personally, I would really try to avoid punishment for a while. It is making you both very unhappy. I would try ignoring bad behaviour (particularly tantrums) - and that means really deliberately ignoring. No eye contact, just getting on with whatever you are doing. No conversation, no arguing. Then when she calms or stops doing whatever it is that is winding you up, praise her for it. I've recently started doing this with my son for whinging and it does work for us. Try to get your relationship back on a cheerier, happier footing. For behaviour you can't ignore - eg hitting - you can physically move her or restrain her, but instead of fighting, try to distract her, move her onto something else. Don't get into arguments with her - they always seem to spiral because you are arguing with someone who isn't entirely rational! Working part time from home sounds a bad thing unless you have good childcare. I work p/t from home but know from experience it is terrible unless ds is being cared for elsewhere. Don't try to work while your dd is around, it will simply trigger more attention-seeking behaviour. What might also help is to imagine that you really adore your daughter, and that she is perfect in every way, and then act towards her as if that is true (not saying you don't love her btw). A change in approach from you might lead to a change in her. Also, make sure she has enough to eat and drink at all times. My ds melts down if he is thirsty or hungry, though he won't often tell me he is either of those things. Give her plenty of warning about what you are about to do next, and try to slow down as much as you both can.

Also have a look at the thread "sometimes I don't like my daughter'. Lots of advice there and sympathy.

Very wise words aloha

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When I wrote yesterday, I don't think that what I had done (and what could have happened) had really sunk in. Today it has and I feel so ashamed & disgusted. Last night I told my husband - he was understandably horrified - at the thought that he is married to a potential murderer and the fact that I could have even thought about doing such a thing. But that is half of the problem - what terrifies me is that I have never thought about hurting her - it just happened in the heat of the moment and I literally "lost it". I was trying to explain this to him but he couldn't understand. He says he will now find it hard to trust me being alone with my daughter and if he finds out that I have harmed her again he will throw me out and I will never see my children again. Of course I understand this, but I now believe that what happened has made me realise that I really do have a problem managing my anger and that things will never get that extreme again. I wasn't going to tell him what had happened but I had to for all of our sakes. Yesterday my daughter kept saying sorry, so it has obviously deeply affected her and I don't know how to repair the damage that I' ve done. I keep hugging her and telling her how much I love her... what more can I do? I didn't sleep last night & cried buckets - I kept thinking that I was in the middle of a nightmare and that I would suddenly be woken out of it but then the truth would dawn on me... I'm in shock - how could I have done it? Has anyone else been pushed to the limits and can you admit it? I'm so scared.

JDM - Speaking to dh was very brave but has probably made you feel worse about it all I suspect.

Now you need to speak to someone who will make you feel better and come up with some positive suggestions that will help.

Understandably your dh is upset - but he should appreciate how hard it was for you to talk to him and how much stress you have been under for this to happen. Do you have a plan to contact someone to support you?

You can apologise to your daughter for what you did, and explain to her why you did it & that it doesn't mean you don't love her and feel proud of her

• this will make her feel much better - kids can understand a lot, and she will probably apologise for her behaviour to you too.

johnnyd - so sad to hear what you and your family have been through. i haven't been there, but understand your frustrations. being a parent of a 4 years old can be so so hard and being a 4 year old can be really hard too . all i can do is offer some things that my ds's teacher told me which have helped me with my 4 year old ds:

1.your children hold up a mirror to your own behaviour
2. this means you have to be the best role model you can be in order for them to manage their emotions (you can't be 100% all the time, but i found when i began to consciously react/respond differently to his emotions or events ie.spilling food on the floor, being late for something dramatically changed things for the better.
3.a detailed example would be tidy up time - instead of threats or demands try 'xyz could you help me put these toys away?' 'no!', 'well we need to put them back in the basket so they don't get broken or in case you step on them and hurt yourself, lets keep your toys and toes safe, then we can read a story, make popcorn etc' - make it into a joke and try and keep your tone of voice level for the request.
4.prepare yourself as much as you can for the next day the night before, hopefully taking away further opportunities for stress or being overwhelmed, being late, trying to do to much in too little time.
5.prepare your daughter as much as you can for each day the night before, let her know whats happening, where you are going, what to expect, who will be there, what she will wear etc., on the day, give her lots of warning if she is in the middle of something, be a few steps ahead, if you need to be out in 1/2 hour don't put on a hour long video on. 'after breakfast we are going to the shops and then the park'. then after breakfast say 'ok time to get your shoes on' give her a 5 minute window to find them and do it so she has plenty of time. lots of praise when she achieves this
6. the key to turning things around is to focus on what they CAN DO rather than what they can't. another example would be if xyz keeps spilling her juice - instead of saying 'don't spill your drink' tell her to 'hold on with both hands xyz, thats right, thats the way' lots of positive reinforcement.
7.structure your day, i tend to do active stuff in the am, and then come home for lunch and let them play in garden, puzzles, playdoh, water play, video in pm. danger time use to be between 4 - 6 pm, trying to make tea when both ds's hungry and tired. try and anticipate by letting them help or video, or baths seem to be the best relaxation for them. i also second freckles advice re: cranial osteopathy -go for one that specialises with children and by recommendation. there is a brilliant one in devon if you are nearby.
8.another thing that may help is if you can't avoid the tantrum/conflict is to really help her through it. give the emotion a name: 'oh xyz, i can see that you are really frustrated that abc has taken your doll' you could try and offer a solution 'you could let abc have a turn you can play with this doll' etc. the more times you talk about emotions and what they are called and what they feel like the more your daughter will understand her feelings and be able to articulate them rather than act them.talk about it afterwards when you are both calm without judgement, reassure her that everythings ok and you are so happy that she is now calm and quiet.
9.get rest, can you let them stay at grandparents or ask your dh to take them camping for a couple of days/ take them on a long train ride/swimming etc.
she is probably striving for her independence and also wants to copy mummy - take it as a compliment and see it for what it is that way you can distance yourself from your emotions.
if interested you could look at non violent communication and look under parenting articles, they believe that all children are inherently good - they are just trying to make sense of the world
best of luck and begin to think of this as a wonderful opportunity to turn things around and try and ask for some rest

Big hugs JDM (great name!). If I had read your first post pre-children I would have been horrified but having now got two toddlers of my own I can completely understand how this loss of control can happen. It is good that you have recognised there is a problem and I am sure you will get the appropriate help if you go to your GP or health visitor. Best of luck

Hi jdm. Im sorry your dh wasn't as supportive as you hoped.
As i said earlier in a message i left you i have a difficult 4yr old ds. I know i completly lost it with him once.
Every day for about three week he would deliberalty poo in his bed. (He'd get up and use the toilet for a wee but poo in his bed) On the day i lost it he drew on the wall with it and said 'look mummy its thomas the tank engine. I didnt Want to use the toilet i wanted to draw'. I got so angry that i bathed him in cold water to wash this off. He must have been in there for no more than a minuite when i thought oh my god what am i doing. He was crying cause he could see i was angry and he was very cold. I just grabbed him out of the bath and wrapped him up and cuddled him. I felt so guilty. Especialy when he said i wont poo in my bed again mummy(he never did again but thats not the way i wanted to get it through). I cried on and off for the rest of that day. I told my dh and thankfully he was supportive.
Children do push you to the limit. Its not bad to admit this.
Good luck Jdm. I really am thinking of you

johnnyd - how are you? really hope things are calming down for you. another thing i thought of is that if it was the noise your daughter was making prompted you to react so strongly could you channel her vocal range to some good ie. music/singing class? i really hope you find a way through this, try and remember that threats and humiliation don't work, they just teach children to do the same back to us. to further avoid conflict give her reasons why you need her to do something or go somewhere so she can begin to make sense of the requests - lots of requests at this age can appear so abstract to a child. try and see that she isn't trying to manipulate you or upset you - did you have problems with your own mum when you were a child? if we're not given the right tools to cope during childhood then we pass that down to the next generation - we don't know any different. you also mentioned your pregnancy - did something happen during this time that made you feel resentful or angry? when you tried to suffocate your daughter you stopped yourself and woke up to what you were doing and you felt great shame, you know it is wrong so now you need to find a way to respond differently the next time your daughter gets angry/upset or misunderstands a request or situation, make sure your dh knows the new way to respond aswell so the message is consistent. please know that you are not alone and it really is time to find something/someone that can help you and your family to change.