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Original poster

Strange shift in values/expectations...

31 replies

emkana · 22/07/2004 23:31

I don't know if I can put my thoughts into words but here goes...
Sometimes I wonder about the enormous change in values/expectations in our society (and in German society, as that's where I come from and still have many friends/family). It feels like I need to justify myself for things like - no, at this point in time, with dd's still quite small, I don't want to have a weekend away from them. Now I know that other people feel differently and that's fine, but why do so many friends feel the need to tell me that I have to do something for myself? Why can't I decide for myself that what I want now is spend time with my children? At home, not going out clubbing or whatever?
I find it so weird just thinking about what my grandmother would have said 50 years ago if somebody had told her that she had to start thinking about her own needs - she probably would have loved her head off - in those days she would have been criticized for doing things which were purely for her - not that that's something I want to go back to, but when/why did things go so totally the other way? Same with working - again, I respect everyone's choices here, but why can't my personal choice to stay at home not be respected, why am I told that I owe it to myself to go back to work -
really winds me up sometimes -
maybe it's just me?

OP posts:
muddaofsuburbia · 22/07/2004 23:37

Wow - emkana - that's quite a profound post for my head at this time of night, but I have to say it's struck a chord with me. I'm too tired to post with a clear head tonight, but I'll watch the replies with interest and post tomorrow. night

sobernow · 22/07/2004 23:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mummytosteven · 22/07/2004 23:41

i think it is all a question of fashion/latest sociological/psychological theory - certainly in England it does seem quite fashionable for Health Visitors etc to encourage you to have nights out/activities away from your lo. But then again 50 years ago there would probably have been more of an extended family of relatives keen to give a helping hand/more of a baby friendly culture. At the moment as DS is 4 months old, there is no expectation that I should be going out to work - but in a year or two, I suspect that people's views wold be different. Motherhood is IMHO generally undervalued.

BadHair · 22/07/2004 23:43

No, not just you, and I've often thought it must be just me that thinks that way. We just had our first ever night away from our dses (aged 3.5 and 1.5) for a wedding, and although it was really nice to just be a couple again for a few hours, I wouldn't want to do it again in a hurry.

When I had children I expected, and wanted, it to be a full-time, life changing thing. Our lifestyles have altered, and I barely go out without the children. Their needs have to come first, and if something comes first then something else has to come second, third etc, and that's usually me. Not that I'd have it any other way.

Sorry if I'm not making sense - too tired!

Original poster
emkana · 23/07/2004 08:33

By the way, obviously meant 'laughed' her head off...

OP posts:
Fio2 · 23/07/2004 08:37

I think its just people have an 'opinion' on everything now. 'You are damned if you, you are damned if you dont' kind of scenario

and yes it pees me off too that I am seen as not being able to make my own choices. Me supporting my husband is seen as 'him controlling my thoughts' , that kind of thing......riles me, I am a grown woman I can do as I please

Twiglett · 23/07/2004 08:44

message withdrawn

Original poster
emkana · 23/07/2004 08:51

I agree, twiglett, and when dd2 (11 months) will be happy to spend an afternoon at MIL's house just like dd1 does then I certainly won't cry my eyes out at having an afternoon to myself - but there are people around me (childless...) who are suggesting that I should take dd2 to MIL now, regardless of the fact that she is mega-clingy at the moment and would be very unhappy indeed to be left - some friends of mine say that I should my "need" to have time to myself over her need to be with me - not understanding that my main need is to see my baby happy .

OP posts:
Piffleoffagus · 23/07/2004 08:59

emkana, my twin
totally, exactly ditto....

Bibiboo · 23/07/2004 09:07

All sounds very familiar - I've been warned not to give up work as it would be giving up my independence. As it happens, I want to go back and financially we need me to anyway, but people can be so unthinking sometimes about what they say.
I do believe that a good balance between being a mother,a wife and a working woman will be healthy for me, but I've been criticised for wanting to do it all. I've been warned by the doom and gloom spreaders that either my child, my career or my marriage will suffer. I don't intend for any of thoses things to suffer but I am capable of recognising if one is and doing what I have to, to make things right.
All the advice I've had has been from well meaning people, but it makes me so sometimes, like they think I'm not capable of thinking things through myself! Grrrrr.

marialuisa · 23/07/2004 09:18

Strikes a chord and i work f/t . TBH I find that RELAXED time with DD is as much for me as it is for her. Sadly we don't get the oportunity for as much of it as we'd like.

Original poster
emkana · 23/07/2004 13:12

I just wonder what people's thinking is behind it? On one level I supposed it's well-meaning - but on the other hand it's so incredibly patronizing and annoying! Especially when I say how I feel about things and it is then said/implied that I don't know what's good for me - why can't I make my own decisions? Let me ruin my life if I want to.

OP posts:
wellsie · 23/07/2004 13:25

emkana, couldn't agree more. I think people suddenly assume you're stupid once you've had a child and therefore incapable of making decisions.
I have 2 MIL's who can't help but tell me what to do and criticise other mothers in our family for staying at home or the way they parent their children.
Unfortunately all they're doing is alienating themselves from me, DH & DS.
It is nice to have time away with DH but on the rare occasion this happens I miss DS soooo much.

Chandra · 23/07/2004 13:34

Emkana, I really found terrible when people came saying things like "Oh don't you feel like your life is over now you have a child?" or "Didn't you feel at the beginning that you were going to spend your life changing nappies?". As a matter of fact I didn't, but have noticed that when you accept that you are not really having a bad time being a mother of a small baby everybody tries to convince you that you are really having a bad time, that you are an aprehensive mother, or they plainly don't believe you.

Sometimes I think people is looking for an oportunity to talk about their bad experiences with their own children and when you say you don't have the problem they assume that you are actually implying they were not such good mothers as you are, which is not true but with all insecurities of motherhood it sometimes comes accross like that.

suedonim · 23/07/2004 19:52

It strikes a chord with me, too, Emkana. I don't feel the need to get away from my four children and I never wanted anyone to 'take them off' my hands. It was suggested to me that I put them into nursery while I did my own thing but it wouldn't have made me happy. Imnsho, dh and I are the best people to look after our brood and we enjoy being with them.

vict17 · 23/07/2004 20:16

It's worse when it's your dh telling you you have to go here, there and everywhere and just cos you've had a baby life must continue as normal. Er no... a baby changes everything!!!

edam · 23/07/2004 20:48

Bibiboo, funny how no-one ever tells men they have to choose between their career, their children or their marriage, isn't it?

MeanBean · 23/07/2004 21:23

What I personally have found is that the more time I spend with my children, the more I know them, so the better I can handle them, so the better I like them, so the more I enjoy spending time with them.... and when I spent less time with them, the less I knew them, so the less well I could handle them, so the more I dreaded spending time with them! And when I do send them away for a few days (to my Mum's) to have time off, I spend a week afterwards re-building our relationship, which is actually tougher than not letting them go in the first place! (but you have to let them go...)

Piffleoffagus · 23/07/2004 21:52

I find it patronising a bit.
I like being nearly agoraphobic, I like staying in with my little dd
I like being here when ds 10 gets home from school. dare I say I like keeping house too...
I spent 7 yrs bringing up ds on my own, I love being part of a what I perceive as a traditional family, I have full support of my dh in being at home.
Although he says I should get out more, more than anyone, I think he means WE should get out more.

newbie · 23/07/2004 22:01

Oooh I so agree. Motherhood is THE most important job EVER, and it is grossly undervalued. We had children because we wanted children and wanted to spend time with them. In 20 years time I don't want my children to look back and think that I wasn't there for them. I need to act now in a way that I can justify to them when they are adults. I had a bit of a 'tiff' with a mum at swimming lessons the other day because she couldn't understand why I didn't think her holiday sounded brilliant ( a week in a holiday resort with her children in kids club for 8 hours each day). When we go on holiday it's to spend precious time together as a family, not to palm the kids off on someone else so that we can get drunk or sunbathe!

Davros · 23/07/2004 22:12

I agree, I don't like other people telling you what you "should" do "for your own good" whatever it is!! I've even been told that I should put my son with autism into residential care "for my own good". One day we may make that choice, when it is right for him, but not as long as being at home works for all of us.

Davros · 23/07/2004 22:24

Also reminds me of being put under pressure to drink when I was pregnant, even though I wasn't bothered....

yingers74 · 23/07/2004 22:34

I think the society we live in today unfortunately attaches importance with how much money you earn. As SAHM we earn zilch, so many assume we are unimportant but at the same time politicians/public blame working mothers/wives for unruly youths and straying husbands. We cannot win! MY dd is 17 months and in that time i have been both a working mother and now a SAHM. From my experience you seem to get comments no matter what you do! In response i try to supportive whatever choice a mother makes (as long as it doesn't neglect children of course). I agree with you edam, for whatever reason, it is assumed that raising children is all down to the mother, unless of course they want to bash single mums then fathers are very important!!! WE NEED A REVOLUTION...............

highlander · 23/07/2004 23:12

but newbie, your attitude toward that mother is just as bad. She obviously needed time away from her kids, but you obviously feel that you need quality time with yours on holiday.

Whilst you clearly cannot contemplate her type of holiday, it doesn't make her a bad mother - and that's the opinion that's coming through from you.

Each to their own, eh?

toddlerbob · 24/07/2004 08:43

My parents have just been here for a month and a friend asked me if I had had a nice break. I said that it was great, I hadn't unpacked a dishwasher, put on or hung out a load of clothes for 3 weeks and I had had a few lie ins. She then said "yes, but have you had any "me" time?". Er, well I was pretty much having "me" time in bed until 8.30 every morning, but that didn't seem to count, I was supposed to go out of the house and leave my parents who I don't get to see very often and go and do something all on my own. Sounds crap to me, what can be better than being surrounded by family?

I have had about 10 hours of "me" time since my ds was born 17 months ago and most of those were at the start when I found it difficult to reconcile that there was now another person I was entirely responsible for. I am happy with that, but amazed that other people can be so rude. I wouldn't dream of telling someone who went away for the weekend (after working all week) and left her ds with her mother that she needed to spend more time with her child, so why is it acceptable the other way around?

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