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Capital Punisment

92 replies

fairyfly · 20/07/2004 21:01

I have just been reading a Thesis on the subject which claimed 2 out of 3 people would like this form of punishment to be re-instated. Personally i don't believe that statistic so i wanted to ask if you would like to see it return as a way to handle our society?
Also i may have the year wrong (please correct me) but in 1965 it was abolished, i am interested to find out how often it was used in the 60's. Anyone have any facts?
Just fancied a chat about something that fascinates me, especially comparing statistic with
America the phillipines, china etc. also how 500
years ago you were put do death for trespassing, would love to know if the crime rates were low then.

OP posts:
wobblyknicks · 20/07/2004 21:04

I would love to see capital punishment reinstated for really serious crimes (serial murders, serious child abuse etc) but for nothing else.

Blu · 20/07/2004 21:16

I would not support capital punishment under any circumstances for any crime.
I'm not an expert, but I don't think capital punishment does reduce major crime does it?

dejags · 20/07/2004 21:25

I can't support capital punishment for any crime. I have got into the "what would you want if it was your DS/DH murdered" discussion before with people - and even then I don't think I could support the "eye for an eye" way of doing things.

I just think it makes the executioner as bad as the person who committed the crime.

I couldn't back it up but I have also read/heard that it doesn't have a huge bearing on reducing crime - I seem to remember that in South Africa they studied it and the odds were that you were more likely to be murdered in a criminal attack to prevent you from identifying the attacker...

tricky subject...

gettingthere · 20/07/2004 21:29

i couldn't support it either for any crime. I simply feel it's cruel and violent. In addition, mistakes are made, and it's simply too late to make amends if capital punishment is in place

Hulababy · 20/07/2004 21:29

I could not support capital punishment for any crime either. My main concern I suppose is always "what if they got the verdict wrong?" I think it may also be an easy way out for some criminals - I would prefer to see them left in some horrid, dingy prison cell with bare essentials only.

mummytosteven · 20/07/2004 21:30

Hi fairyfly - been googling and found a site with lots of statistics on capital punishment - www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/contents.html

assuming the statistics are correct - and I have no reason not to, according to thise there were 17 people executed during the 1960s.

will post more later - a very interestng topic

lydialemon · 20/07/2004 21:37

I don't agree with capital punishment either. How can we be morally correct in punishing someone for murder, then committing the same crime in retaliation? Does it correct the misdeed, will it bring the dead back to life? I read a quote once that states 'an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind', trite maybe, but true.

If you are really worried about punishing a criminal, surely locking them up in our crappy prisons for a huge amount of time is better than killing them, which is just too damn quick...

twogorgeousboys · 20/07/2004 21:41

Could never support capital punishment either, and do not feel it "belongs" in a civilised society.

As others have said, it leaves no opportunity to remedy miscarriages of justice - that is very very frightening.

I do however believe life imprisonment should mean exactly that, and I'm not sure it always does. I think perhaps this is what has driven some people to consider the return of capital punishment as an option.

fairyfly · 20/07/2004 21:48

Thanks for that mummy to steven, a lot of information on that site, i have that in one of my favourites. It is interesting as the whole issue effects each culture so diversly. Obviously capital punishment is not working in America but the fear seems to be more inbuilt in places such as singapore.
I liked his point that divorce is readily availible now so domestic murders are falling, poisons aren't availible so that will fall anyhow.
I think the main point of capital punishment is not to punish but to be used as a detterent. Whether that is the case is a slightly complex issue.
Will read more

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hmb · 20/07/2004 21:52

I disagree with capital punishment because I couldn't carry out an execution myself and I think that it is moraly wrong for me to ask someone to do it on my behalf.

Mistakes are also made and can never be undone.

And while I would want to kill anyone who harmed my kids, I could not allow the state to kill them if (god forbid) they killed someone.

donnie · 20/07/2004 22:06

I don't believe in capital punishment.I feel people should be made to live with their crimes. Ian Brady wanted desperately to be allowed to starve to death but was prevented by the courts from doing so - how searingly ironic that he should be forced to stay alive having murdered so many children.I see that as a bid to escape and hide from his terrible crimes. Apparently Ian Huntley finally admitted to his parents last week that he did deliberately murder those 2 girls Jessica and Holly.If he had been hanged this never would have happened.Although my heart often says such and such a person should be executed I do ultimately believe that in a civilised world we cannot repay murder with murder .Having said that I think gaol sentences should be much stiffer and that the laws and court procedures relating to sex offences are a joke.

hmb · 20/07/2004 22:07

I think that life should mean life

mummytosteven · 20/07/2004 22:52

I disagree with capital punishment for various reasons:-

1)what right does one person have to take another person's life
2)potential for miscarriages of justice. given the reliance on scientific evidence, such as DNA, and the fairly recent dawning on the general public that medics/scientists are sometimes biased and get things wrong, this potential can only increase - viz Sally Clarke case.
3)the problem of serial killers who do not divulge the location of their victims' graves/identity of their victims for several years.

I suspect that most people in favour of the return of capital punishment are in favour of it for its retributive value rather than its deterrent value. Many people who commit homicide are under the influence of drugs/alcohol/psychopathology - so a deterrent value wouldn't come into play. In the US it is not clear cut which murderers end up being sentenced to death (tho funnily enough poor ethnic minority defendants are rather more likely to end up on Death Row). Even when murderers are sentenced to death in the US, there are many years of appeals that have to be exhausted before an execution.

Beetroot · 20/07/2004 23:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

BadHair · 20/07/2004 23:12

I'm totally against capital punishment and agree with Dejags and everyone else who said that in effect it makes the executioner a murderer, albeit a state-authorised one.

I don't think it ever worked particularly effectively as a deterrent either, although there are arguments that corporal punishment worked to deter minor crime. Not that I advocate that either.

fairyfly · 20/07/2004 23:23

I think it will be introduced, not for a long long time but before our lifetimes if government structure stays the same. I knew the statistics didn't reflect society, not that mn does entirely but i wonder who they ask. Victims families probably, in a state of despair and grief.
As a deterrent i think it puts a society in a state of fear and fear leads to anger, i just quoted Yoda,
thank god i have left education

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Tinker · 20/07/2004 23:39

I doubt it would ever be reintroduced. We'd be kicked out of the EU surely. Always a free vote on it in the Commons and I would be quite scared if this were ever put to a referendum tbh. There are a lot of people in this country who buy the Sun and the Mail.

Think it fails on all fronts:

  • immoral, can't justify punishing murder with murder
  • miscarriages of justice
  • doesn't act as a deterrent - capital punishment was still the law when the Moors Murders were commited and the US states with most crime are those with the highest number executed.

It would be an emigration issue for me if it were ever re-introduced.

Life does mean life though. Might not mean behind bars for life but for those released, they are out on licence for the rest of there life.

mummytosteven · 20/07/2004 23:46

an interesting summary of the arguments against capital punishment from, of all places, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website(!)

Common myths about the death penalty

"The death penalty is a deterrent"
This is not proven. Numerous studies have failed to establish that execution deters better than a long jail sentence. For example, the USA has the highest murder rate in the industrialised world, and rates are highest in Southern States where most executions occur.

"Murderers deserve no mercy"
All persons are entitled to full protection before the law and full observance of their human rights., including the right to a fair trial and the right to seek pardon or commutation of the sentence. Criminals must be brought to justice. But there are other means of doing this. And, with the death penalty, miscarriages of justice are irreversible.

The international community has agreed that even the worst offenders at the Rwandan and Yugoslav war crimes tribunals cannot face the death penalty. Criminals must be brought to justice. But there are other means of doing this.

"Most countries have the death penalty"
Not so. In 2002, 111 countries had ended capital punishment in law or practice. Only 84 retain it, and many of those have moratoriums*. The international consensus is now moving towards abolition.

"Most people want the death penalty"
Poll after poll finds that the more people know about the death penalty - and possible alternatives to execution - the more public support for the death penalty drops. That is why Britain works to encourage more debate about the death penalty in countries which retain it.

suedonim · 20/07/2004 23:50

I'm totally opposed to capital punishment and I don't believe it will ever be reintroduced.

But I wouldn't be surprised if 2/3 of people are in favour, certainly if straw polls in the likes of the Sun are anything to go by...

mummytosteven · 20/07/2004 23:53

in view of the position on Europe (UK has ratified the protocol in the European Convention of Human Rights forbidding the death penalty) i guess there would have to be a major schism on membership of the EU to reinstate the death penalty.

Tinker · 20/07/2004 23:56

their not there - argh, just spotted that

fairyfly · 21/07/2004 00:06

The reason i said i believe it could get introduced in our life time, and i do believe that. A lot can happen in forty years, the e u could have dissapeared, that is an entirely different argument but who is to say that is safe. We are all becoming a changing scared society with no true identity. Things are never secure.
I also don't believe in life, life without parole it is not a lesson in anything, it is a protected hideaway where the criminal becomes institutionalised and safe.
I am looking for something that frankly probably doesn't exist in my brain, i know capital punishment is morally wrong, but prison isn't working either. Society issues are to blame, respect etc. how we gain that back, i just don't know it will probably take a disaster, sad as it sounds.

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mummytosteven · 21/07/2004 00:07

true - in 1900 who would have predicted WW2 could happen. bet they thought they were all civilised and modern then

mummytosteven · 21/07/2004 00:08

so is it less of a punishment to be institutionalised with no hope of release, than to be institutionalised with hope of release? not sure about that one.

Tinker · 21/07/2004 00:27

Why do you believe it would be introduced though ff? Haven't we always been scared of something? Was the Cold War and The Bomb when I were a lass. Society always needs its bogeymen perhaps.

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