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Original poster

The Monday Debate (TM): what has religion ever done for us?

48 replies

SenoraPostrophe · 16/04/2007 19:27

OK, so those who saw last week's debate might spot a formula here, but bear with me...

There was a fascinating article in the guardian on Saturday about how many in the west take for granted the idea of moral and philosophical relativism (i.e. we believe that there is no such thing as Truth because we can never be 100% sure of anything. All truths, and even all rights and wrongs are relative.) The article argued that this effectively leaves us with a moral void that many are deeply uncomfortable with, and has resulted in the rise of religious fundamentalism in all its forms.

Now if you'd asked me 3 weeks ago what religion had ever done for us, I'd probably have said nothing, but this and a couple of other articles have really made me think. I personally don't like religion, but actually I like hardcore moral relativism even less - you know, those people who believe that nothing is True except their own Opinion. I'm quite happy believing in neither but I can see why people are attracted to the absolute certainties of religious fundamentalism.

so anyway - is religion really that bad? or, if you are religious, is it really that good?

I'm off to get a glass of wine while this thread dies a very swift death....

OP posts:

LucyJones · 16/04/2007 19:30

a quick answer would be it is bad in that it causes the most conflict in the world. And it is good because it encourages people to live by a code that largely has a good influence on our society (although obviously not always) and gives people belief that their time on earth is not wasted - and makes them feel at peace when they are one foot in the grave....

Janh · 16/04/2007 19:32

Oh, you and your heated Monday debates, SP

(btw DD1 has promised to speak to her Matlock friend and out you in touch before you get here...)

Pruni · 16/04/2007 19:49

Message withdrawn

Pruni · 16/04/2007 19:51

Message withdrawn

Pruni · 16/04/2007 19:51

Message withdrawn

Swizzler · 16/04/2007 19:55

There's the G K Chesterton argument - the problem with lack of belief in God being not that you beleive in nothing but that you believe in everything. True to some extent I think (can't you tell I'm sitting on the fence here?)

Pruni · 16/04/2007 19:57

Message withdrawn

Swizzler · 16/04/2007 19:58

Would say that all belief systems (including atheism) have their problems due to the fact that real people are involved.

Swizzler · 16/04/2007 19:59

So do you believe in nothing or everything? Which is also a belief of course (getting confused here)

morningpaper · 16/04/2007 19:59

I love religion

Where is this article though, my Saturday Guardian is still sitting unread (except the magazine which doesn't count)

Pruni · 16/04/2007 20:00

Message withdrawn

bobsmum · 16/04/2007 20:01

To say that "there is no Truth" is an absolute in itself

Pruni · 16/04/2007 20:03

Message withdrawn

Tinker · 16/04/2007 20:04

is religion really that bad? or, if you are religious, is it really that good?

I suppose it depends on what the particular religion says/dictates. And what is "good" and "bad". And what I think is good will be completely different to a religious fundamentalist.

God, that's all pointlessly vague. Will watch.

BarefootDancer · 16/04/2007 20:08

Built some of the most incredible architecture in the world.
Given people a sense of collective identity.
Been used as the excuse for wars and violence.
Provided people with hope, joy and peacefulness.
Subjugated people.
Lifted people out of despair.
Made people look to something beyond the day to day grind.
Generated more debate than answers.
Lots more stuff

Original poster

SenoraPostrophe · 16/04/2007 20:13

mp - it's on the last page before the letters page, at the bottom. or maybe it was the last but one page. Subheading was something like "when the MOD and the pope agree, you know you've got trouble". It doesn't seem to be online and I gave my copy to somebody. we expats treasure our papers...

Anyway Pruni - I think I agree with everything you said except for the bit about being jealous of religious people. I think it is perfectly possible to be spiritual (i suppose that's the right word) without religion. And I suppose the key is meditation of some sort - religious people get their mediation through prayer, I get mine through lounging around and looking at the garden. and maybe through singing. we're all different, eh.

OP posts:

Original poster

SenoraPostrophe · 16/04/2007 20:15

swizzler: I believe in humanity. naive as that may be.

But that Chesterton quote is very apt. Not many people go to church these days but there does seem to be an awful lot of new age/crystal/aura type bollocks going on. Maybe he had a point.

OP posts:

Pruni · 16/04/2007 20:15

Message withdrawn

Original poster

SenoraPostrophe · 16/04/2007 20:17

Tinker - "what is good/bad?"

That was part of my point. Everybody questions that these days, and perhaps it would be better (in terms of there being fewer fundamentalists about) if we did that less.

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fennel · 16/04/2007 20:18

I read that article, though I can't remember which section it was in.

I don't think SP's characterisation of moral relativism is quite fair - as a belief that nothing is true except one's own opinion - proper moral relativists will also think that their own opinion is not "true", as well as everyone else's.

And say that there is a moral void left by philosophical relativism, I don't see that this is to blame for (possibly, hypothetically, in some cases) people turning to religious fundamentalism to fill the void.

It doesn't make sense to turn to a religion as a way of reducing the risk of religious fundamentalism, which seems to be what SP is hinting at in her first post.

bobsmum · 16/04/2007 20:18

is religion really that bad? or, if you are religious, is it really that good?

I don't like the word "religion" or "religious" because to me they smack of rules and regulations which does not apply to me in my own Christian faith.

For me a religion is something static and rigid with tenets that must be adhered to out of fear or tradition.

Personally I believe I have a relationship with my creator, God, which is so personal I feel I can call him Father. It's a faith and a friendship where I give and receive. I feel and hear God speak to me through friends, dreams, songs, situations and just pure gut feeling.

There's a great book of apologetics written around the subject of postmodernism, the "disappearnce" of moral absloutes and the repurcussions for Christianity called Truth Decay

Obviously people of other or no faith might not be that interested, but any Christians would be heartily recommended to read it.

Or even better is "The Gagging of God" by Prof Don Carson. It's a bit meaty and brain hurty, but worth getting through I think.

Original poster

SenoraPostrophe · 16/04/2007 20:20

My old landlady is the most religious person I've ever known. She's not choosy: she goes on catholic pilgrimages and Bhuddist retreats - it always makes me laugh a bit. But when I was in hospital after a miscarriage she said she'd pray for me, but that she didn't really mean prayer, just that I would be in her thoughts. I've been trying to find a way of saying that in a crisis that doesn't sound so mixed up, so far without success.

OP posts:

WelshBoris · 16/04/2007 20:21

If the question is What Has Religion Ever Done For ME? then the answer is it has provided me with comfort and support at some of my lowest and darkest times. I know God is always there, he is a constant in my life which is, as I said, comforting.

Enjoy your debate SP,should be fun!

Swizzler · 16/04/2007 20:22

or there's the quotation: religious wars are about people who can't agree on who has the best imaginary friend

Think there is a lot of crystally belief and (as someone brought up as a non-conformist) it really irritates me. I do think that religion, specifically Christianity (from my experience) is a useful discipline for want of a better word. And I certainly believe in Christian principles. I'm a woolly minded kind of agnostic though, so not best placed to judge

Original poster

SenoraPostrophe · 16/04/2007 20:23

fennel - that was a comment about "hardcore" moral relativism. of which there seemd to be a lot about at university. But I agree it doesn't apply to all relativists.

but yes, a return to religion is what I was hinting at (I only hinted because I don't think I agree). maybe they should bring back compulsory mass?

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