what has feminism ever done for us?

[SenoraPostrophe]

right girls, it's timne for a proper debate which isn';t about blardy weaning.

the motion is this:

feminism has not really acheived anything. women got the vote and were accepted in the workplace because of the world wars and not because of reason. Later, we accepted careers, but ended up neither having our cake nor eating it what with all the housework and childcare we were doing. and male hegemony still reigns supreme.

discuss.

I haven't seen it.
Iraq had a secular regime and reasonably (for that region) good rights for women until Bush intervened.

yes Xenia that's true.

I agree Kerrymum - I alluded to this further down - for the majority of women around the world very basic things like access to an edication and reliable birth control is a fantasy.

But that's not to say western feminism isn't valid (I know your're not saying that BTW) as feminism has made many ideological errors in the past, the knee jerk reaction to evolutionary science for instance. If feminism is to become relevent to young women today, its ideas need to be based on facts.

What's this about feminism having a knee-jerk reaction to evolutionary science? Tell me more, Monkeytrews.

I think it is based in facts. I think most people now accept men and women are different biologically in many ways but that doesn't stop women being competent soldiers, leaders, doctors, judges etc.

lol Xenia - when was the time any one thought men and women were biologically the same?

Sorry I mean PMSL or even ROFL. Getting the hang of these abbrs soon.

I didn't really put that very well but there was some 1970s feminism which at the time (and it was understandable because science hadn't got into studying male and female brains and their differences) thought we were clean slates when born and all boy differences and girl differences then flowed from how we are treated.

In fact although obviously treatment does result in some things (just think of cultures where the girls are mostly pretty submissive) there are other differences that no matter how you bring up a girl or boy will often show themselves and most feminists now would accept that. That doesn't mean women can't lead armies but it does mean some of them may be better at certain things than men and vice versa perhaps.

Many feminists support a cultural view of the 'construction' of gender which can hence be 'deconstructed'. The blank slate hypothesis. They rejected evolutionary science, or socio-biology, as it held that there were biological differences between the sexes that culture couldn?t erase - and there is sting evidence for a universal human nature, which they somehow believed would consolidate ideas of female inferiority - which it categorically does not. Feminists frequently dismiss evolutionary science as biological or genetic determinism not realising that biology and environment are interlinked; in fact that genes are switched on by environmental stimuli. Having a particular gene isn?t a guarantee of anything in behavioural terms. And I?m sure they wouldn?t be so dismissive of genetic determinism when it comes to the functioning of the parasympathetic nervous system.

The culturally determined model of gender is still very strong within the humanities at the moment, and guess what, the humanities is in crisis too these days as well as feminism! There's a correlation.

Lynne Segal called Darwinian feminists 'the enemy within' and there are numerous attempted broadsides at it from cultural feminist camps (who make up the majority in academia) and it has led feminism in academia up a very dark intellectual blind alley. There is no hope of it surviing if it stays there.

What cultures are you talking about Xenia, where women are submissive? And could you clarify what you mean by submissive?

strong and mounting evidence

I'm not an expert but what you said is what I thought.

Just look at all these British men who want women from cultures where women are trained from brith to be submissive to men. Which ones? Indian families around me here in London the girls often are taught to serve the boys (not all but some), men come first, women's principal role in life to marry have babies and look pretty (mind you that seems to be the lot of a hard core group of housewife mumsnetters), Thailand, probably some bits of Africa even.

So Xenia - why on another thread were you advocating the wearing of a bikini whose sole purpose was to scream 'look at me, I'm REALLY sexy' ?

Why shoudn't feminist want to look and feel sexy and good and attract men? I've never seen any contradiction in that. Lust is a good thing over all in men and women. As long as it doesn't lead to women depending on men economically. You can look good in a bikini on the beach and still be President of France etc I was never a dungaree flat shoes feminist.

But when you're wearing a teensy weensy little thong, no man is going to be interested in your fascinating intellect.

May be but I wouldn't expect to pick men up on a beach anyway and I only date clever men who might be interested in my mind as well as my physical attributes such as they are.....

I suppose I could reject men entirely as they've hardly done the planet much good, perhaps work to their total obliteration by putting something in the water to see them all off.

You are a very enigmatic woman, Xenia. I was really surprised at your response to the bikini. that's all. Don't take out my DH please, he's nice.

Yes Xenia, you post of 19:33:29. That kind of repression is all cultural.

And men compete with each other for resources and status, women compete with each other in looks. It has been that way for time immemorial.

"As long as it doesn't lead to women depending on men economically."

This is exactly the western fantasy. Pregnant women, and those with dependent chldren all over the world are dependent on their menfolk economically. That's why men exist - so someone can still go out and get food so the women and then the children live to pass on their parents genes to the next generation.

Those who didn't have a partner to do this, or were abandoned would have perished and hence are nobody's ansestors - inlcuding yours! You got to where you are via this pattern. This is essentially at the heart of parental investment, women commit more resourses to childbrearing from the carrying of finite numbers of eggs onwards. Every step of the way they have much more to lose - but they have developed their own adaptations to avoid being expoited because of this. Male/female realtions in this area are incredibly fascinating when seen from a biological level - seeing the differing strategies and counter strategies that have evolved over millions of years. Concealed ovulation for one.

Xenia, you are over 40 am I right?

Women are only in their prime in beauty in their late teens and twenties. It's definetly possible to look good after that, but people are crazy to think they could objectvly compete. Thank god for love - it's blind you know.

she aint listening, Monkey. Busy trying on that new thong bikini ...

"Men compete with each other for resources and status; women compete with each other for looks" is a gross generalisation. Some women compete more than others over looks. Some men compete over looks. I have seen plenty of competition over resources, status and even winning board games from women.

But the rest of what you've said about male/female biology I agree with Monkeytrews.

Xenia, you suspect that a hardcore of Mnetters agree that "a woman's principal role is to marry, have babies and look pretty". I hope you are not suggesting that any one who enjoys being a SAHM takes that view.

MT, I don't agree if you go far enough back. Women have always gathered more of the food people live on than men who might have hunted but only rarely brought back meat. Women have found core sustenance and I don't even think we needed male strength necessarily. Anyway here today in the UK women don't just compete on looks. A lot of women compete in terms of their career etc just like men do, if we're competing at all. A lot of women choose not to bother with men at all.

(I will make a special note to preserve LM's husband when I do my purge of all men then.... he can be of the token sperm bank men)

Thanks X. Funnily enough, when he was a student he always wanted to make a bit of cash through sperm donation and I always told him not to. But looks like there's a brave new world coming !