Greener on the other side...?

[LiamsMum]

Over the last month or so, I've met some of the people connected with my dh's work - many of whom seem to be quite 'well off'. I spoke to a couple at a function a few weeks ago who employ a nanny, and the husband was telling me that he and his wife had been away recently on an overseas trip for 3 weeks, and they left the children at home with the nanny. We also ran into some more of his work associates at a wedding yesterday, who also regularly leave their babies/children with nannies and they all seem to have a wonderful social life. You know what I noticed...? They also don't even talk about their children at all. One couple (about our age) have 11 month old twins and I tried asking about them, but all they said was "they're fine". No further comment. Don't know if I'm being a bit one-sided but I just got the impression that they 'look down their nose' at anyone who doesn't have the same lifestyle as them. I certainly think it would be nice to have the freedom to have your cake and eat it too, but does anyone else think there is anything wrong with leaving young children with nannies on a regular basis? I'm not talking about the necessary work-related childcare, so please don't take me the wrong way! Maybe dh and I just aren't part of that world, but I would feel guilty if I was away from my child so much.

I think you've brought up something really interesting, though my reaction is a little different from yours. Like you, I'd have a very hard time leaving my children for 3 weeks (or even for 1 week!), and have never done so. But I also think that those decisions are individual, and that there's nothing inherently wrong with leaving your child with someone he/she feels comfortable and happy with. A few times a year my parents used to go on holiday and leave me for 2-3 weeks with grandparentswhich, admittedly, is not the same as a nannyand I cherished that time.

About your suspicion that they're looking down their noses at you, I wouldn't be surprised if they are equally worried about your reaction to their lifestyle. I imagine they feel some guilt about leaving their children for so long, and I'm sure it occurs to them that their lifestyle could meet with disapproval. So maybe their apparent snobbery is really a kind of defiance.

Finally, I think people vary widely in how much they talk about their children, and I don't think there's a correlation between how much you talk about your children and how much attention you give them. I think some people feel strongly about keeping an identity that is separate from parenthood, and choose to find things other than children to talk about. (Though I, personally, think children are a great common ground when talking with other parents, and would also have been surprised by those parents of twins having absolutely nothing to say about them.)

LiamsMum, not to make excuses for people looking down at your choice of lifestyle, but aren't you doing a little of the same to your dh's colleagues. Perhaps, they "need" the separation from their children just as you need to be around them. And maybe they prefer to talk about other things than their children when at adult parties because when they are home that's all they talk about. I know that right now I would love to go to a party where I could have a deep intellectual discussion about politics and not have my big pregnant belly or my son's nappy brand mentioned once.
My parents always took an annual 2 week vacation without me and my brother...we stayed at home with the nanny. (there were always plenty of family vacations too) That doesn't mean that they loved us any less and in fact we probably spent more quality time with my parents than lots of our friends who had sahm's. I am still very close to my parents and hope to raise my children in much the same way. I consider myself fortunate to be able to have the choice of how much adult time I want to have away from my children as opposed to lots of people who can't afford to have the choice. Not only do I think it's healthy for me, but I think it's healthy for my children. But I also think that there are degrees to everything. I didn't have children with my first husband because I felt that he would not have wanted to spend enough time with his children and family. I don't think that he would have been there for the important things: holidays (xmas, thanksgiving etc.), birthdays, school plays etc. I hope I'm not sounding too critical, but I just wanted to point out that there is a valid opposite point of view here.

I have to say, when Liam Gallagher's girlfriend (whosit from All Saints) went to Japan with him and left their few-weeks-old baby behind I was totally outraged. Still feel that was very wrong - but, would love to have week's holiday with just me and dh (except can't bear the thought of leaving ds yet). I can't help talking about ds ad infinitum which I'm sure is v boring to my friends, so I feel guilty about that!

I have friends who, earlier this year, left their two kids, aged 2 & 4, with their (mature) babysitter for 4 days while they spent some time with friends abroad. Later this year, they are also planning a 2 week hol. while the grandparents look after their kids.

Personally, I would miss my children too much to spend a long time away from them, but when d.d. was 6 months, we did leave her and d.s. (2 1/2) for a few days while we went on a "mini-break" and I must admit, it was wonderful! They were with my mum and dad, so I knew they were in great hands. Def. wouldn't leave kids overnight with a babysitter, though. Nothing against people who do, but I would be too worried to enjoy myself.

I did think the Liam Gallagher/ Natalie (or is it the other one?) thing was a bit wierd though. With a first baby, I would have felt really unhappy leaving it at such a young age.

SofiaAmes & everyone - I probably didn't come across very well in what I said!! I didn't mean to sound judgmental, I have just been in two minds about it this situation. My dh & I love having time away from our ds and we do go out quite a lot. I also love the company of adults and I really do not spend a huge amount of time talking about my little boy. It's just that when I heard about people going overseas and leaving their small children with a nanny, it seems like such a long time for the children. Time passes a lot more slowly for kids and I guess I felt a bit sorry for them, in case they may be missing their parents and it would probably seem like 'forever' to them. My ds stays overnight with my parents and we've left him with them for a few nights at a time, but I guess when we're talking 'weeks', it just doesn't seem right to me. SofiaAmes I'm glad you weren't affected by it, that's a good thing. It's just my feeling on the subject... that's all.

Liamsmum, I also find it strange that anyone could consider leaving their children behind to go on holiday, I couldn't leave mine. I once saw a programme about the Norland Nannies and they actually run a sort of hotel at the nanny training school where children can board whilst their parents are away. I felt so sorry for some of the children who were dumped for weeks and sometimes months with strangers in a strange place. I did wonder why some of these people actually had children in the first place. If they don't want to be parents 365 days a year perhaps they should have thought about it earlier. When I chose to have children my own needs and wants were put in second position.

We go away at least once a year without the children. At first it was just a weekend, this year we managed ten days. The boys are only 3 and 4 now, and we leave them with grandparents. If I had the money, I would certainly leave them for three weeks to go on a 'wow' holiday, such as New Zealand.

From this thread you're all horrified by this. So why do we do it?

We desperately need this time for us, to build up our relationship as a couple, and to put ourselves first. I am a SAHM and often feel that in most day-to-day decisions I put my needs last in any equation. The boys come first, second, and third. I love being home with them, but sometimes I just need a break. We just got back from a family holiday, which was very hard work. There were some good parts, and some special memories, but I didn't feel it was a holiday for me. With the boys we can't do the sort of things we would choose to do for ourselves. (Lots of bleakness, solitude, quiet reading, long walks). I don't think it is "fair" to drag children along with things they don't appreciate.

The boys will now walk up to 4 or 5 miles, and do appreciate wildlife, nature, birds, etc. I loved taking them to a beautiful remote cove in Cornwall, and watching the basking sharks, seals, and dolphins ... but they also have other ideas of fun. Of course I enjoy sharing their enjoyment in things, but I like to have the freedom to make my own choices too sometimes.

But a lot of people don't necessarily choose to be parents - aren't 50% of pregnancies unplanned?

I have had breaks of upto 3 nights without my daughter and I didn't enjoy it fully becasue of the guilt. But I do find being with her all weekend extremely hard work and would never begrudge anyone a two break if they could manage it.

Parenting style/attitude whatever has a lot to do with your own personality - if, like me, you're a pretty independent solitude seeker, having a child can be a form of torture (at times). I also know people who seem unable to be alone, having a child must be a little easier if you are the kind of person who loves/craves company all the time. I'm meandering off the point here, I think, but I can fully relate to people who don't talk about their kids when they are outside - they just want revert back to themselves, before kisds changed their status surely?

Agree so much about the parenting style/personality point, Tinker. There are times when I long to be alone too and it's terribly hard to bear the high pitched little voices nagging at me when I'm in that mood. Oh for a garden shed that was mine all mine (and a garden to put it in). And there are other times when I yearn to be away from the kids but with partner, though perhaps not in a garden shed...

PamT, there is more than one way to leave your children behind while you are on holiday. My brother and I were not "dumped" on a stranger. We were left with the nanny who had been with us since birth and looked after us until we went off to university. I'm sure that if there hadn't been someone that my parents trusted, then they wouldn't have left us. From what I remember we loved the break ourselves (we got to watch far more tv than our mother ever let us watch). I don't think that being a parent 365 days a year necessarily means that you have to be physically present with your child all of those 365 days. As Tinker said, some people need more solitude than others. I can't wait until my pending child is old enough to leave her with the childminder (more trustworthy than dh) so I can have a break.

Dp and I went away for a week without 2 year old dd earlier this year. It was absolute bliss and she stayed with granny and was spoilt rotten and doesn't seem to have been psychologically scarred in the slightest.

We've never left the baby to go on holiday and have only left my eldest twice for 3 days/2 nights (before the baby was born). All I'd like to add to those that have left their kids for weeks is: I'm so jealous.

I absolutely crave time alone (and I mean alone, not even with DH!) - I am a SAHM but am seriously considering leaving DS with a childminder one morning a week (I know I am lucky to afford it) - I have always led a very independent lifestyle and find it quite claustraphobic just 'being with somebody else' ALL THE TIME!! I regularly use babysitters but as family is so far away have actually only been able to leave DS for one night when my parents came to stay - but would do so for much longer if I had the opportunity!

I am desperate for peace & quiet to read a newspaper from cover to cover, just to do 'nothing' - doesn't anyone else miss this?

As for talking about children all the time, quite honestly I can't stand it and am probably one of those mothers who very rarely talks about her DS -maybe I am the wierd one? My friendship with my 'best friend' is seriously threatened as she rarely talks about anything except her children, which I find very odd.

It seems hard to make a point on here sometimes without something being taken the completely wrong way! Tinker I TOTALLY understand the need to be alone, my parents not only babysit for us quite regularly but they take him for one day a week so that I can have time to myself and get some study (and housework) done. I also use that time to just do what I want to do. I was never 'maternal' before I had ds, and there are still times when I can't wait to get away from him!!! You know what I mean when I say that. But the point I was making was about leaving children with nannies for long periods - to me, grandparents are a different thing. My ds has known his grandparents since birth, he loves them dearly and they do spoil him a bit. I'm sure kids get on well with their nannies too, but I remember when I was a child my father travelled a lot and my parents also went away/went out a lot and I missed them terribly. We were living overseas at the time and had no other family members around. This is still quite strong in my memory, hence my current point of view. Regarding talking about children, this woman who had the twins was someone that dh and I had kept in touch with occasionally because we all had children within a short time of each other and so when we see each other (about once or twice a year!), it seems logical to at least pass comment about how they were faring with the babies. I didn't want a running commentary from them about their children, I was just enquiring after them and wondering how 'life with twins' was. Nothing serious. DH and I are social people too but people are ALWAYS asking us about our little one, so I tell them in 20 words or less how he is progressing, with a few jokes thrown in about how overwhelming we find it sometimes but, all in all, he's a great kid. So that's all I was expecting! I can tell you, I miss the trips that dh and I used to take before ds was born, and wish I could do it again without having to be concerned about where/who my child is with, but we have him in our lives now and can't do exactly what we did before. KMG, we also took ds to Fiji with us when he was 18 months and I agree with you, it is hard work and I wouldn't be in a hurry to do it again until he's older. I think this is a subject which people will feel very differently about but I hope you can see what I'm trying to say.

Liamsmum - I do understand the distinction you're making between nannies and family caring for children. I suppose it just depends on the relationship that the children have with that carer. I suspect most nannies are quite young, and for kids that's quite exciting.

Lindy - I too crave solitude. I find having a child who doesn't seem to have developed her own INNER monologue yet, really tiring. I can't even daydream in peace. If I stare out of a window, I'm immediately asked 'What are you doing?' Aagh!

Unless I'm mistaken you live in Australia don't you LiamsMum? A lot of my Australian friends leave their children behind when they travel overseas simply because of the 12 - 24 hour flight and 9+ hour time change they are facing. My parents used to leave us for 3 weeks at a time every few years when they went back to Ireland to visit my father's family as it just wouldn't have been feasible for the four of us to come. I have to confess though that I hated it!.

I absolutely love out holidays with our children and personally would hate to leave tem behind. But I work 4 long days a weeks and I think I would have a different view if I was at home with them all the time.

Liamsmum, I suppose a lot of it comes down to how important your kids are in your life. Perhaps because I don't have a stressful business empire to run or other huge responsibilities they are the only focus in my life. My children come number one in my list of priorities. I talk about them a lot, always put them first and often sacrifice my own desires to make sure that they are happy (but I'm not saying that I spoil them because I don't). I socialise with like minded people and find the whole idea of children taking second place to be a bit alien. I also crave time for myself occasionally and do sometimes get a break when Grandma looks after them for a few hours. Perhaps as they become older I might enjoy a weekend away without them but I couldn't even consider it now. Even then, they would stay with family members or friends of their own age.

PamT, I disagree. Just because a parent works and/or leaves her child with (a clearly trusted) someone else or manages not to talk about them at a social event, doesn't mean their child/ren are not important to them! I'm with Steve Biddulph on this one: he says (I paraphrase) you and your relationship should come first, followed closely by your children. His point being that if you are happy and your relationship is good/being nurtured that you are able to be a better parent/s.

Before DD was born I was adamant that I wanted to stay at home and was horrified by women who had kids and went to work full-time. However, 7 years and 2 DSs later I work full-time and even leave the kids at nursery when I get an afternoon/day off (sometimes) and feel no guilt! I have kids who are very happy at nursery who would prefer to be there with other kids than at home with me if we're not doing anything...It also means that sometimes DH and I can spend the day together without interruptin which is really good for our relationship. I left DD overnight with my mum when she was 3ms old and have left the boys from a similar age, they all love this as mum lives on a farm and she gives them treats i'm stingy with (cake, sausages, waterfights..). I also try not to talk about my kids too much as I'm paranoid about boring people witless, at the end of the day nobody else is going to be as fascinated by your kids as you are, and sometimes it's nice to go to adult gatherings and put domestic chaos to the back of your mind..

My mum used to have fairly frequent holidays or breaks away from me and my brother when we were kids. My dad was a fireman and so worked a lot of shifts but would take a few days off to look after us while she went on breaks with her mates, or they would both go and we'd stay with our auntie. I never thought this was unusual and we always knew full well that mummy was on a "jolly" - a break from us to have a kid-free fun time. I think this is an excellent idea and, as long as the kids are happy with whoever they're staying with - whether it's family or not - then good for them.
Incidentally, re. the Liam Gallagher/Nicole Appleton thing - I was upset by this because the baby was 3 weeks old and also was having to have surgery for a cleft palate (I think that's what it was for) while his parents were on holiday before Oasis's tour in Japan. I don't think I'm being hypocritical here; I just think the baby needs its parents on a very basic level when it's this young and needy.
When my mum left us we were aged 5 and upwards, once or twice a year.

When we married dh already had 2 children who lived with us so we never had time to do things together before starting a family. So we have always tried to make time to have at the very least a couple of weekends away but usually go away for up to ten days once a year. We now also have two more children and to be honest it is much harder to leave them than the 'steps' - one of who was very difficult and we all benefited from a break, but it is very important to dh and me for our relationship to spend time together doing things that we want to do and just having time where we can concentrate on each other and not attempt to keep six people happy!
These trips have always been depndent on having the right childcare, usually the nanny but now I have an au pair I employ a wonderful temporary nanny who is like Mary Poppins and the children really like her.
I also make sure that we go during term time when the children are out all day anyway and I plan visits to and from friends for the weekends or a special outing to help make the time go more quickly.
I also phone them a lot partly because we do miss them a lot and also so if they have any problems they can still talk to me about them.

I agree that having the odd adult-only holiday doesn't mean your child always comes second. Doesn't it all depend on who's looking after your child and how happy they are to be left? No set rules, no set age.

However, I would have been unhappy to leave my young toddler son with a carer for, say 2 weeks at a time, even though he was used to being childminded. I wanted to wait until he could express himself easily - from approx four years onwards in his case. I wanted to feel reassured he could make himself understood. Also I wanted him to be old enough to answer this question properly - 'are you happy to stay with for a week?'

However, if we had had grandparents living nearby, or a familiar and loved nanny, and he was very used to an extended family set up, I probably wouldn't have felt this way at all.

He stayed with his grandparents, living 300 miles away, for a week, aged five, and loved it. Aged 8, he now asks to stay regularly with them. In fact he's angling for a three week stay over the summer holidays - choosing to spend one week at home with us and two weeks on our family holiday.

Eli you're very lucky to be able to employ someone you feel happy to leave your children with. What you say in your post does make sense to me, and I think Tigermoth has articulated what I have been feeling about the subject - that it makes all the difference if the child can speak for themselves and tell you if they're not happy. I think that's what disturbed me most, is that little children are kind of helpless when it comes to situations like this because they haven't got the ability to express themselves. The kind of woman that SueW talked about gives me the horrors, don't know why they bother having kids in the first place!!

Well I don't know about the right or wrong of it but my dp and I have just returned from a week in the sun without our dd (she is 9 months)and it was absolute bliss. Although I missed her every single day I managed to cope by laying in the sun and doing nothing except the odd bit of uninterrupted reading for days on end. Dd stayed with her grandparents and had a week of sheer indulgence herself, she at no point seemed bothered by our going off at all. I think all in all it is much fairer to leave her with family than to drag her off to a hot country where she couldn't even play because of the heat/sun, there were a few very miserable babies in our hotel who were just to hot to do much but cry.