Are society's ills in the UK something to do with the fact that we 'don't like kids'?

[Moomin]

Was just reading the hen night thread about leaving your kids and something Caligula said has struck a chord. It's probably a completely obvious chord to most people but was just wondering...

All thes stuff in South London with the shooting, and gang culture in most cities, and kids feeling disillusioned with life and lack of role models, etc. Is it to do with the fact that we don't, as a nation, like children very much - or that's how it seems.

We have threads full of stories about how hard it is to go shopping, go for meals, go on outings with kids; also about how other people's kids get on our tits so much; how rude schoolkids are, what a rubbish job all the teachers are doing; how much our kids dislike their contemporaries and/or feel threatened by them (I'm exaggerating slightly but you get the picture). And then we also see when we visit other countries just how much a part of everyday life it is having families and celebrating the existence of your children.

I was walking home with the pushchair the other day and I passed a car around the corner from my house that a lady was just getting into with her grown-up daughter. I couldn't tell exactly what country they came from but it might have been Greece and the older lady was waving madly to dd2. I wondered if she 'knew' dd2 through the childminder or something but then both ladies got out of their car to fuss dd2 and chat to her and I realised they didn't know her from Adam. How many British people would make this much fuss and make dd2 feel so special? It might happen sometimes but I would guess not that often.

Why don't we like kids and what can we do about it?

I'm 43 and society didn't like kids when I was a child. I don't think that has changed. What has changed is what someone said further down the thread- there was more of a global responsibility for children then. If I misbehaved, someone would have been round to tell my mother before I got home. Adults had authority- if you were hanging around outside someone's house and they told you to go away you did. Now you'd get a mouthful of abuse, possibly followed up by a visit from an aggrieved father telling you to f-ing leave his f-ing kid alone.

I was brought up to "consider other people" all the time. We weren't allowed to make a noise in the street early morning or late at night, that sort of thing. Now the general feeling is that people can do what they like so you get woken up at 6am on a Sunday by other people's kids making a row in the garden or have your trip to the cinema ruined by someone's 3 year old running up and down the aisles screaming (used to be no under 5s in the pictures). I used to be a waitress and a real pet hate is children running round a restaurant- it's always the waitresses fault when the child gets knocked over or something dropped on them, even if you can't see them behind a swing door or if you are carrying a heavy flat- never the fact that it is a dangerous place for them to be running around. The parents who let their children do that seem to just abdicate all responsibility for them.

That is why people don't like children.

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No I don't think that's why people don't like children, Tallulah. They don't like well-behaved children who are sitting nicely and quietly with exemplary manners, either.

I don't think that we as a nation don't 'like' children.

I think that we as a nation have become to scared to dicipline our children in a positive , loving way. We are also now too scared to tell childrem off when we see them misbehaving.

We also don't let chilren be children in fun constructive ways. We are too busy letting them becaome mini adults at ages where they can't handle the responsibility in a positive way.

In my classes I treat the kids as kids. They are not the adults in the lab, that is me! My teacher trainer told me off for it! But the strange thing is, thei like being treated as kids! They like to feel secure and looked after.

I agree, MB. I don't even think most people know what positive discipline is. I would love for you to be my dcs teacher, I so want them to be treated as children and looked after. I don't know if you saw my post about my cousin being told by her daughter's teacher that she was young for her age b/c she didn't fancy boys - she was 10 - in fact she's just got her first bf at 18.

I don't think our society rates parents very much, or parenting. That's why the government peddles the idea that anyone is better qualified to look after your kids than you are.

Been thinking about this. I agree with Lucy that I like the whole community responsibility for ALL dc in Spain. It feels so NORMAL. It's not what they do so much as how they go about it that makes dc feel welcome and liked. I like the fact that people will tell your dc if they shouldn't be doing something. I have no problem with that because they have a NICE expression on their face, a NICE tone of voice and it comes across as if they LIKE your dc. That's all you have to remember. Then it's fine.

In Berlin (where I live) there is really an awful lot in the way of dc's facilities available and dc on the whole are not shunted away. However, a local radio station went round asking people on the street if our town is child-friendly. Every single person answered - no.

I have to agree. Just one example: Took dd to the Ethnological Museum on Sunday. I so hate that place. After 15 minutes, she really wanted to leave, saying "Mummy, I'm scared of the museum attendants, they all look so nastily at the dc." She's right too. They're awful. Don't think I'll ever go back there, in fact I'm writing to complain about it today.

One attendant came up to dd who was sitting on the carpet watching a film about Tongans building a canoe with a group of other people, making no noise, not disturbing anyone in any way or doing anything she shouldn't. This old b* goes up to her with a look on his face like he hates her guts and said something. I saw her stricken face and she was in tears, just wanting to go home. She won't say what he said. In fact she's still so upset she's off school today.

I find there is way too much of that kind of thing, downright overt nastiness to dc even without them having said or done a thing to provoke it. I doubt the UK is worse in this respect. Frankly I'd leave here today given the chance, although the UK wouldn't honestly be my first choice after all I read on here.

I've thought of so many things to say as I've read this, but have now forgotton most of them!

I agree with whoever said that there is an expactation that children act like adults and join the dult word asap. It seems that childhood is merely training for adulthood, which is just appalling imo. This is a real regression though - didn't Maria Montessori and others joyfully realise that childhood is a wonderful life stage in and of itself, not training for 'real' life?

The notion that children are 'adults in training' is so sad I feel like crying as I write this. What is it about the British and "Naughty"? Everywhere I go I here parents telling there children how naughty they are, or discribing, for example, their 2 year old's tantrum as 'naughty'...WFF???? (and I never swear, but I just HATE this ...probably it works me up so much because it is so pervasive and insidious...I say it myself sometimes now )

I'm not sure either that its just a London/South thing. i'm living in the E Midlands and ite here too. Sure, there are many lovely people who chat to the DCs etc, but so many who glare and bitch on busses, wont move aside for the buggy, and give dirty looks when I BF.

In Australia its not so bad - defo not the child loving culture some of you have described in Italy/Spain etc, but nothing like here. So what is it I wonder? The media scapegoating kids? Or scapegpoating parents? FWIW I do think kids here behave, on the whole, quite badly, and this is a very difficult cycle to break.

God i love this thread

i totally agree with everything

my dh adores children, if we go to a barbeque and there are couples there with children he will get them all together and play football, have trampoline competitions etc

he will chat to the other fathers about their children, laugh about things babies do, ask pg women when they are due, etc

if your baby is crying, give him/her to dh, he has this wonderful knack...

he wants to take the dd's everywhere, if we get invited out he always wants to take them, but we hardly have any friends who have children and they always assume we need to find a babysitter. cant we just bring the dds? how else do they learn things like manners, politeness, social interaction if the only place they get to go is jumpin' friggin joeys, school or grans house?

i moved back to my home town because i thought it owuld be a "good place to bring up my children"

in fact i was wrong

all my friends work. i am alone with the dds all day long with nothing to do

i refuse to go to mcd's for lunch or jumpin' friggin joeys ( i hate that place) just because i have children

i dont know if you saw my thread the other day about when i took the dd's to a lovely cafe nearby and i had to leave becuase a customer was so nasty to me as soon as she saw i had small children with me. i never saw a sign on the door that said "old witches only" or "no children" ffs

we are moving back to edinburgh and i cant wait.

i saw your thread np......what a bitch eh?

god yes she was

i think cities are better for families, tbh

towns like my home are so full of narrow minded old crows

Last Christmas, I was queuing up at the supermarket with my DTS who were 2y9months at the time. They were squealing, laughing and messing about with each other. Some customers looked at them and smiled. Others looked at them and scowled. One old lady, scowled at them, and then swore at them saying "why don't you bloody well shut up?". I was shocked as were some of the other customers. How do you respond to that?

My DM said that people like that are just so full of hate because their lives are so miserable.

With regard to OP, I think society's treatment of children reflects the general lack of respect that is prevalent in society, e.g. road rage, saying thank you when someone opens the door for you etc. Many people are more intolerant, more self-centred and generally lack the altruism to contribute to developing a more integrated society. Noise from children impinges on their little world and they find this intolerable.

Parents have to shoulder some of the blame though. Not every man that smiles at your child is a paedophile and sometimes, your precious off-spring does behave badly and they should be suitable chastised for this. How many teachers get threatened by parents who object to their off-spring being given detention for bad behaviour? Similarly, how many people, especially men, will avoid helping a child for fear of being branded a molester?

speedymama, yes i agree about men not being able to play with babies and children

my dh just loves it. he will tickle your baby and change her nappy. but sometimes he says to me "is it still ok for me to have a bath with our girls?"

they are only 2 and 4 ffs, but what feel natural and fun to him is betrayed as WRONG by society

i think there are a lot of people who are having children because it is expected of them. get married. get pregnant. its not what they really want so they resent the children.

what also shocks me is when people are surprised to see children after 7pm! whats that all about?

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oh cod that reminds me of what i was thinking earlier

in britain we value material things more than other places

we OD on tv programmes about decorating our house and we think having a beautiful home is more important than other things

a child puts a muddy footprint on our pristine white rug - OMG!

other countries dont seem to have a B&Q round every corner

Naily, that town sounds awful!

Here's hoping for better for you all soon!

Very true Cod.

thanks expat

house should be on the market next week

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cod my pet hate is Space Travel

wtf?

And the Olympics.

The damage done to this country by the Olympics is going to be huge. Wonder if we could pull out?

I get really disturbed on those home makeover programmes when the parents say they want an 'adults only' living room. What kind of signal does that send to the kids - not only does the outside world want you out of sight, so do we?