Are society's ills in the UK something to do with the fact that we 'don't like kids'?

[Moomin]

Was just reading the hen night thread about leaving your kids and something Caligula said has struck a chord. It's probably a completely obvious chord to most people but was just wondering...

All thes stuff in South London with the shooting, and gang culture in most cities, and kids feeling disillusioned with life and lack of role models, etc. Is it to do with the fact that we don't, as a nation, like children very much - or that's how it seems.

We have threads full of stories about how hard it is to go shopping, go for meals, go on outings with kids; also about how other people's kids get on our tits so much; how rude schoolkids are, what a rubbish job all the teachers are doing; how much our kids dislike their contemporaries and/or feel threatened by them (I'm exaggerating slightly but you get the picture). And then we also see when we visit other countries just how much a part of everyday life it is having families and celebrating the existence of your children.

I was walking home with the pushchair the other day and I passed a car around the corner from my house that a lady was just getting into with her grown-up daughter. I couldn't tell exactly what country they came from but it might have been Greece and the older lady was waving madly to dd2. I wondered if she 'knew' dd2 through the childminder or something but then both ladies got out of their car to fuss dd2 and chat to her and I realised they didn't know her from Adam. How many British people would make this much fuss and make dd2 feel so special? It might happen sometimes but I would guess not that often.

Why don't we like kids and what can we do about it?

Completely agree with SSS re: British people worrying about offending others - I get insanely stressed when ds starts crying in public, far too worried about other people objecting to my baby invading their aural space...

Mind you, that's tied in with little old ladies loudly commenting on the likely cause of his rage which always makes me feel like a bad mother

Then again, it's complicated - I was brought up (as was everyone I know) that behaving well in public was important and that I was likely to be told off for any transgressions by any passing adult and then told off again by my mum for showing her up. The flipside was that I had lots of private space to transgress as much as I liked (ie playing out unsupervised).

It seems to me that interacting with other people's children is frowned upon now by a lot of parents worried about strangers and annoyed about their kids being pulled up by others.

I don't really know where I'm going with this actually - started typing before I'd formulated any sort of argument. Besides, ds is my first and so I'm still too close to my previously childless self to really understand what it means to be a parent "these days"

This is a really interesting thread. I agree with sockmonkey's point about the media. Teenagers are frequently villified in the press in a completely unjustified way. Apparently around 10% of 'anti-social behaviour' is caused by teenagers but if you believed the popular media you'd expect to see gangs of knife-wielding yutes on every corner. And the number of knife crimes committed each week hasn't increased in the last ten years, but you wouldn't know that if you relied on the 'news' for your news.

I didn't say education should be "forced". Instead of forcing women into low paid jobs, I'd train them for better ones. If they still want the crap jobs then it's their choice.
The trick is to look at the market. A lot of government schemes have been captured by people with daffy agendas. What's good this year may not be next year, indeed given the numbers of poeple involved the sign of success is altering shortages in the job market so much that you must keep changing.
Thus we have to stop the arty types pushing Macromedia shit at people. Web design is so stupidly over-supplied that even good people find decent paid work hard to find. Legact languages like Urdu offer no employment prospects. But there are businesstechnologies you can gain competence in relatively quickly. Business skills like sales can't hurt either.

I have to say (again) that this "not liking kids" thing is not my experience of the UK at all. Strangers in the street fuss over dd and ds in both Spain and the UK. But then my experience of the UK is of the East Midlands and Brighton. Could the problems people are talking about be mostly to do with London and the home counties?

I do also agree that the British media have a thing about teenagers at the moment. hopefully that will blow over - they don't have a go at single mothers like they used to.

but I don't agree that educating mothers will help much. what we should be doing is looking at why some women make it as far as motherhood with such low education levels in the first place because by that time they are likely to be disenchanted with education all together, and that is hard to reverse. Mind you, Macromedia is shit.

This is a really interesting thought provoking thread. I did write a long and convoluted post in response to some of the things posted below but it got very whaffly. My conclusion however, is yes, I think society's ills are because we don't like children. We don't like being confronted by emotions and that's what children force us to do. The priority in our society is to make money, like some sort of industrial machine. And to say that we shouldn't value the arts, is like some kind of Dickensian factory owner counting the pennies. We need to value all those things that force us to encounter our emotions and understand what kind of people we are, learning for the pure joy of it as someone said below. There's a phrase from a poem "Bread and Roses" as the two essentials of life. I suspect that if this country treated the children as roses a little more often, we wouldn't have half the problems we do.

peaches: what problems are you talking about? If gang culture (as menytioned in the first post) then why wasn't it a problem 50 years ago when the British "stiff upper lip" was widely held to be a great national virtue? Not much admitting to emotions then.

As for money ... that probbaly is part of the cause. Not that iot's so important to lots of people (because it always has been) but because the gap between rich and poor in the UK is so wide.

we don't have to be like that though peaches do we, people (esp women) just seem to fall for it. £500 handbags anyone?

I find people in the UK really hostile to children and this starts when PG women are ignored on public transport (no one offers them a seat), continues through the lack of wheelchair/buggy access to anywhere, through to people tut tutting at us when we have the gall to take our kids out with us anywhere like restaurants. There is still a "seen and nor heard" approach to children if you ask me.

But then the collective mental health of people in the UK always mystifies me anyway.. like when someone is attacked and everyone ignores it so they won't have to help...

..very odd

Agree with Peaches.

When I was little, growing up in a village in Yorkshire, I knew that every adult I bumped into would tell me off if I was up to no good, or help me if I was in trouble. Or just stop and have a chat. Whether I knew them or not. Not sure that applies today. By and large we're too scared to let small children play out and take the risk that they might interact with adults we don't know.

Although, having said that, can't think of a single occasion in which an adult has been actively nasty to ds in a public place. Although living in a commuter town in the South East, you just don't see children playing out - in the park with their parents yes, hanging around the streets and lanes, no. Don't see children down the local footpath on their own, for instance.

no-one's answered my question: are we talking about the UK or London? because London is very unfriendly per se ime.

I often find myself out alone with a pram. I like to rank cities by how long it takes for a passer by to offer help when I'm stranded at the bottom of some steps. Lincoln (surprisingly) beats Granada and the town where I live (near Granada) by quite a long way.

Personally I found the most helpful people in Amsterdam.

i didn't find london great to bring up a child so moved back to my home town.

I think the British "stiff upper lip" masked a whole load of problems. My father was beaten as a child by his "Stiff upper lip" father. There were still gangs 50 years ago, they just wore smarter suits (and gun culture wasn't as prolific).
And no, SEA, we don't have to be money loving. As suggested below though, it's just seems to be what the government would like - if they hadn't pushed the house prices up and SAHMs were valued more, I suspect more parents might not feel they had to rush back to work as quickly. I also think I just got a bit wound up by Dominiconnor having a go at arts graduates. Urdu would be quite useful around here.

lol. don't take any notice of dc. he should come with a health warning.

But I think the point I was trying to make is that not displaying emotions publically isn't all bad.

Anyway, I've just had another thought. One of the things people always moan about is a "lack of respect for authority", which probably is more common now. But the thing is, that lack of respect (and the idea that people "know their rights but none of their obligations" ) is simply the other side of the fact that we have much more confidence in ourselves as individuals than we ever did before. No-one would have questioned a doctor, a teacher or a priest 50 years ago. and we should be able to question them. we just need to find a more moderate way of doing so generally I think.

...also in that case, what is your idea of a good society? Spanish people show their emotions more readily than British people, but the domestic violence statistics in Spain are shameful.

I'm not sure it is just London and the SE though they aren't great because of the whole "work work busy busy money money" thing going on. I think the "not liking children" thing is across the UK though. Media presentation of them. Making them sit in class at age 5 learning lists of spellings. The cr*p served as "children's menus" in restaurants. Where I live (admittedly a bit rough) I'm constantly shocked by the "oi shut it you" attitude people have towards their children. I can't wait to go to Italy this summer and see how it's different.

You should see what they make 3 year old sit and learn in Spain. British primary schools are havens of creativity in comparison (they are one of the reasons we're moving back to the UK in fact). and everyone says Spain is a child friendly country.

But I don't think the crap served as children's menus is a symptom of anything other than that many children are over-indulged in the UK. Can't say as I've seen a children's menu in Spain (people would usually order something from the main menu, which might be good or it might be pizza), but when dd was in hospital they never brought her any fruit at all. I asked about it and they told me there was no point because the kids won't eat it.

pizza is actually good healthy food if made with the proper ingredients.
where are you going peaches? I would really like to make an intelligent comparison between italian children and english ones. I realize I can't, haven't been living in italy for nearly 8 years, and feel society has changed a lot, without me understanding british society much either....

I also think children become confident if there is a set of values that are actually shared by family, school, the community. But it doesn't seem to be. and this is not just a british problem.

that is sorry

I think we're pretty intolerant of kids as a country. For example, I was at an informal conference-type thing today and DH brought 7 month old DS along to see me. He was quiet so I sat him on my knee at the very back for a while. I was always going to take him out if he started making a noise, but at the very first murmer some woman on the main back row turned round and gave me such a look. What was her problem? It's not like no kids were allowed or anything.

I don't get this not liking kids thing. I like them. I take my children to pubs/restaurants or whatever - finances are the biggest factor. Last time we ate out as a family was in a cafe in York for DS's birthday - he wanted fish and chips. Before that I think it was New Year's Eve in the local Italian restaurant. DS and DD had pasta with chicken and mushrooms to share. I like children. Although I might not tomorrow after 2 hours with 18 of them at DS's party....

It'll be interesting to see what happens in Wales education wise over the next 20 years. They're introducing a "foundation stage" for 3 - 7 yr olds which is a radical change apparently from England's curriculum because it advocates learning through play much more and doesn't seem to make children learn lists of spellings. My son's school has been trialling it (before it's launched, I think, across Welsh primaries this September), so I know no different but have compared it to the reports I get from friends and MNers who's DCs are at more "Traditional" schools (and sound much more scary) but that's one for a separate thread I think.
Completely agree with SP and MIFfy (sorry I like that name!) It's also this "respect" thing that drives me mad. Knowing one's right but not one's obligations.
Hi Franca - we're going to Costa del Tuscany and staying in a glorified butlins camp on the coast, so I'm not sure I'll see many italian children there! Don't know though. We're also having a week nearer Florence though and might spot some of the natives if we're lucky . Hope so.

but franca - so is fish and chips. the pizza I'm talking about isn't particularly healthy though...