Why do women put up with useless men? Do they <whispers> martyr about it a bit?

[hunkermunker]

Not abusive, not unkind particularly, just useless.

There have been LOADS of threads lately about the most ridiculously useless specimens of men and I really do wonder whether some women just enjoy moaning about their partners and would actually feel quite threatened (or some other word like that) if their partner started pulling his weight around the house, etc.

Well that's sort of my point. I prefer to do certain things a certain way, so I do them. DH does the same. We share the stuff neither of us cares about.

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Soapy, yes, exactly.

agree with soupy!!

True Soapy, I think there's something about a first baby that tips some women over the edge - in order to cope they become total control freaks. Most men will assume you don't need help if you don't ask for it so it's not fair to slag them off to everyone else for not doing anything.

I agree with a lot of this. I inadvertently tried out nqc's "do you put salt in that" test when I was pregnant and scatty with DS. On seperate occasions I put orange juice and squash in DH's instead/as well as milk. And truly I very rarely make him a cup of tea these days.

But there's another thing - many men do have an extremely deeply buried assumption that childcare is a woman's job and it can be extremely hard to shift it. I have tried numerous strategies with DP - lists of household tasks, letting him see what a day with DS is like etc. - and they have worked - he now does a lot of housework and childcare, we both have lie-ins, etc. And he is a lovely, kind, caring man who sees himself as an equal partner and wants in theory to pull his weight. And yet he instinctively doesn't. Eg when we get in from a trip out together, he will just wander off and sit at his PC, leaving me with DS. I have to actively remind him that one of us always has to be looking after DS and it should not automatically be me - every time. If we're out together without DS and one of us has to get home to the babysitter, he assumes it will be me. I make a lot of effort to wake him up about this, but it's hard, ongoing work. If you're not a martyr, you're a nag. And yes I do compare these things with friends and have a laugh over it, because it helps - although I avoid criticising him to his face.

And, even though when it comes down to it I do basically work harder than him and do more, I still appreciate him, love him and stay with him. Especially when I hear from friends who have far worse DPs. One who is a lovely man and close friend of ours is, it seems, a lazy twat when it comes to his toddlers - I hear things from his wife that make my blood boil. Yes, she must let him get away with it - but then if you're an exhausted working mum, educating your errant DP on top of everything else is also an exhausting job.

Has anyone read Men are from Mars Women are from Venus? It's all about how men and women score things differently eg women count each nice gesture as 1 point but men think they can do a big gesture and that will keep their points in credit for a while. And that if the woman doesn't complain he will assume he is still in credit.
There's a lot of tips for both partners on how to manipulate each other (nicely) into more harmonious living. My dh refuses to read it, his loss - he has no idea how much I play him!

I've got a friend who moans about her dh not doing anything around the house

then she shouts at him for folding the washing wrong

and goes 'oh my dh is so useless'

poor sod

I think she just feels a need to be in control of everything; she's not happy if she's not stressed and martyred

Also Soapy, actually there comes a point where you can't just let them get on with it.

For example, my xp would have left our DS in a shitty nappy for a couple of hours before changing it. Well call me controlling, but that is unacceptable to me. A) it stinks and B) it is so unfair on the baby. So the option is either to change it myself, or to remind xp that as soon as you smell a nappy, it's time to change it.

Or he would just give bread for lunch because he couldn't be arsed to cook DS a meal. Again, once in a while that's just about OK, I don't like it but I can bite my lip, but as a regular thing, it's unacceptable because imo it's neglect to consistently not feed a child properly.

As I am married to a man most of you may define as 'useless', I think I may be in a better position to clarify why we don't just leave.

My DH isn't totally useless; he works very hard outside the home, to the detriment of our family life. His job comes first for him, and no amount of moaning I could do would ever change that. BUT

We have two daughters and a modicum of a family life - I have just got used to taking the girls out/away without him. I do not martyr myself, in fact I find it's the opinions of others when they observe the way he doesn't do much for his family in the 'hands-on' way. Much along the lines of 'He is so lucky you haven't left him' 'I would make him do more' etc etc. Well, I haven't left him because we have 2 children who love him to bits, as he loves them, even though he doesn't do much with them. And, strangely enough, I take my marriage vows fairly seriously, too. I'm not just going to walk because he doesn't spend enough time or energy indoors or with us. He works hard and provides in a different way, even if he is 'useless' as a family man. If that makes me a mug or a martyr, so be it.

my PA has a hopeless boyfriend - in the past six months she has paid his rent, moved house for him while he was on holiday, looked after his dogs, bought his christmas presents, sorted out his visa situations, supported him through a court case and paid all the legal fees, lent him money and her credit card for a job interview in London (ie $5000), negotiated his contract for a new job, moved house for him and told his mother he was leaving the country. She's seriously in debt and stressed and now has a pack of 8 dogs to support and his car to sell. But he has a good heart apparently so thats ok. Meantime he is in London, living it up on her money and accidentally calling her by another woman's name.

meowmix, that really is a different kettle of fish. Men who openly take advantage are bad news, and quite different from 'useless' husbands. Of course he has a good heart, I'm sure he's quite a happy person, in the circumstances. Hope she sees sense and walks away. That is abuse, plain and simple, and if she's not married to him, all the easier.

meowmix, hopefully your PA will learn the error of her ways before she becomes permenantly attached to that idiot!

GOH, I have no problem with people meaning married to men who are 'useless' at family life so long as they don't moan about it. I think it is the moaning that turns you into a martyr rather than accepting your life situation and getting on with it (which from your post is what you seem to be doing .

I have been out on numerous mums evenings with women from my postnatal group moaning about how useless their DHs are and what a mess they expect when they get home, while simultaneously telling me how lucky I am with my DH who is a SAHD. Luck didn't really come into it, economic circumstances forced our situation and I have had to learn how to let go and let DH get on with looking after DS. If I am honest he does a really great job, but it took some time and adjustment from both of us to get to where we are now. The 'useless' DHs of the women I go out with having never looked after their DCs for longer than an evening or perhaps a day - never on their own overnight, never for a week while the woman does something else for a change.

Lots of women do become martyrs with their DCs, I think it makes them feel better if they are the ONLY person who can care for them sufficiently.

amen to that - actually i don't think he's deliberately trying it on. I think she just enables him to be hopeless and he's young enough to be stupid and thoughtless. So it was more about her enabling the behaviour than him exploiting her.

I agree, martyrdom can be an easy mantle to wear as it seemingly shows you are indispensible to your family and they couldn't function without you. But on the other hand, how many martyrs are created by their circumstances? You have lived with a man for 17 years who has got progressively more useless and the ties that bind are practically indestructible, but no one wants to hear how hard your life is. Sometimes I think they just want someone to listen to their grievances, because they fall on deaf ears at home. I personally think moaning is a waste of time, but it can make some feel better, just getting it off their chest and having somebody sympathise, or even empathise. But I do notice that sometimes it seems like a bit of a competition - who has the worst hand in life.

well i have to say that my DH is brill he can and does do most housework stuff, he may do it different but who cares! we are all good at different things i do all the school stuff the general organizing and all the paperwork type stuff.

I think some women have a higher threshold for annoyance. Mine is extremely low. Dp was a complete dickwad for much of last year, but I didn't stay with him out of martyrdom, I was pregnant and he has never objected to me spending vast quantities of time in bed. I needed him.

Now, reading the above, it sounds like he got away with murder simply because he is an early riser. But I was depressed for much of 2005-2006. I was hell to live with and in hindsight I know that now. I know that his overspending was (sometimes) a stress response, not just selfish dickheadedness. And he was stressing because I was horrible to him.

I think the martyrdom can be judged not by what you seemingly tolerate by not leaving, but by your reaction to it. When dp is a dick, I don't leave. but neither do I ring my7 friends and go "God men are so crap"

I am mistress of "I am going to go out now, ring me when you understand why" and 'The Patronising Note' - with full instructions to how to do minor tasks that didn't get done the last time I left him to do them.

In short, he's human and sometimes I do moan about him, but I am human too.

Obviously, I am not her because I don't moan about him to everyone .

I was married to someone "useless" in all aspects other than going out & earning money.
Because I loved him, I kept hoping he would change & rise to the challenge. Kept hoping he would morph into a real grown up & start behaving like a parent.
To me, it seemed impossible that any grown person could bear to be so inept. I had no idea that by being deliberately useless he ensured that I was his domestic slave.

Caligula - I was not suggesting that neglect fell within the realms of acceptable behaviour. Rather that there is often more than one way of parenting/doing domestic duties and as long as it is within acceptable bounds, women should just accept that different doesn't mean useless!

Yes agree Soapy and I think that's where one person's definition of acceptable is someone else's definition of neglect. And where oen person's idea of straightforward responsible parenting is someone else's idea of nitpicking Howard Hughe's type fanaticism. I guess if you can't agree definitions, you're always going to have a problem.