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Original poster

Dull I know but anybody have any experience of renegotiating an offer on a house following survey and legal searches?

84 replies

ShowOfHands · 01/01/2007 17:15

I know it's New Year's Day and you're all enjoying a wonderful bank holiday off work and of course you're not remotely interested in my mundane questions about the house buying process. However, I thought I'd ask in case any of you kind people took pity on a poor pregnant lady...

Briefly, we put in an offer on a house back in October, had it accepted subject to survey etc. The offer was ?1000 below the asking price. We have found from the survey and legal searches that none of the work the vendor did to the property has planning permission, nor does it meet current building regulations. The galley kitchen has been extended to the width of the house but is only single skin and needs retrospective planning permission, work to bring it up to spec and various checks done on it. The attic has also been (badly) converted and the house was sold with the attic advertised as an extra room. Our solicitor has informed us that this conversion is substandard and the attic must not be used as a habitable room and should have the stairs removed to it to make it storage only or work done to rectify the vendor's work. The survey says 'we strongly recommend you renegotiate price'.

So, obviously tomorrow morning we are going to phone the estate agents and try to renegotiate the price. What I want to know is this: Has anybody else ever done it? What are the chances of the vendor renegotiating?

I know it all very much depends on how much the buyer wants to sell and whether he thinks that anybody else would proceed at asking price. However, I'm pregnant, hormonal and worried that the whole thing is going to collapse. If you were the vendor would you renegotiate? And do we change our offer or wait for the vendor to suggest a more reasonable price? I'm actually finding this more upsetting than I ever anticipated.

Never try to buy your first house and have your first baby at the same time.

Thanks for any help or advice offered.

OP posts:
LIZS · 01/01/2007 19:05

Did the survey put a valuation on it for mortgage purposes? The owner can apply for retrospective planning permission but I'd be surprised if your solicitor advises you to proceed with exchange until it is through which could delay it further. Perhaps call the council planning office but their website should show a target timescale fro approvals. Mention Property Misdescriptions Act to the EA when you call !

I'm not sure a single skin wall is necessarily a problem in itself but will lack insulation. Personally I'd suggest you take a Planning officer and/or builder around the house to discuss what work needs doing but agree not all of it may require pp anyway.

Tinker · 01/01/2007 19:16

Agree about the single skin bit not being such an issue - and it's only in the extended bit. The survey on our house made a huge deal of this on the "extension" It's a porch!

crunchie · 01/01/2007 19:26

Well I would go back with an offer of £115K and see what he says

DoesntChristmasDragOn · 01/01/2007 19:31

Does your DH's grandfather have a different surname of have a business partner? Get him to estimate the cost of rectifying the building works to give you a negotiating point.

Original poster
ShowOfHands · 01/01/2007 20:05

Soupy, exactly what I was just suggesting to DH. DH's Grandad's firm's name is that of his business partner (and DH's Grandad has a different name anyway) so we might get a quote from him and use this as a guide when approaching the EA.

The survey said that our offer would be fair if the work met building regulations (which they said it didn't) and proper planning permission had been obtained (they could not know whether or not it had, but they suspected not due to standard of work). Therefore they said they would 'strongly recommend a price renegotiation' to reflect what they thought would be the incurred costs from improving substandard work and any potential legal implications of applying for retrospective permissions.

Should have mentioned as well that there is a porch without planning permission too, but we're going to pull that down anyway as it's crap so don't expect the vendor to financially worry about that although we will mention it to back up our case. Our concerns are the kitchen extension not being approved- we want to keep it- and the loft not being a usable room.

Hadn't considered that the solicitor wouldn't allow us to complete without the planning permission in place.

OP posts:
DoesntChristmasDragOn · 01/01/2007 20:14

List the cost of putting everything to rights whether you plan to do this or not. T

ShowOfHands · 01/01/2007 20:19

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Twiglett · 02/01/2007 11:04

and? .......

Original poster
ShowOfHands · 02/01/2007 11:14

DH's Grandad is coming over this evening to talk to us about it and draw up a quote.

DH phoned the EA this morning and spoke to a guy we haven't dealt with before. He was less than helpful. Kept saying 'minor work' (in response to DH explaining about having to dig up the floor in the kitchen, check foundations and flashings, insert chemical damp proof, double skin, replace a roof joist, get retrospective planning permission and building reg approval etc etc). DH brought up the issue of the attic not actually being a room and us not being able to use it and the EA said 'oh but the word room is so ambiguous'. The "new wooden floor" in this "attic room" is nailed onto the frickin' ceiling joists!! And he kept saying that renegotiation was 'unlikely'.

Anyway, we've got copies of all correspondance with the solicitors, a copy of the survey and DH is going to see the guy we usually deal with at the EA tomorrow.

I'm a bit about it all at the moment as I really like the EA we usually deal with- he is efficient, honest and fair- the guy DH dealt with today didn't seem to want to help at all.

OP posts:
Twiglett · 02/01/2007 11:20

Its his job .. but he's an idiot patently .. probably a junior or a 'wide boy' type

unfortunate but don't let it piss you off

you have a good action plan and you need to stick with it

minor problems .. my arse

is the ea signed up to the code of practice thingy they do now?

Original poster
ShowOfHands · 02/01/2007 11:22

It is signed up to it and boy do you know it. The EAs are great really and very helpful. DH said the final straw was when work experience boy said 'alright mate' at the end of the conversation.

I have a terrible sinking feeling that we're going to have to pull out.

OP posts:
Twiglett · 02/01/2007 11:24

can you call back and ask to speak to manager and go through the points with him (I assume your ea is not there today) .. tell him you were concerned at reaction from previous person you spoke to and you need them to realise how serious these issues are and to talk to vendor sensibly

I bet the last house sale fell through because of the same thing .. not a chain issue at all

Original poster
ShowOfHands · 02/01/2007 11:30

We're just going to wait until tomorrow. We'll have a quote from DH's Grandad, DH will be there in person and we will be dealing with our normal EA who is lovely (and his wife had a baby just before Christmas so he's back from paternity leave tomorrow!).

Surely the vendor must realise that any seller will find out the truth about the property and ask for a price renegotiation?!

Thanks for all of your advice Twig- happy birthday

Will update when we know more.

OP posts:
Blu · 02/01/2007 12:05

When was the velux window put in? I think there is a length of time beyond which the council can't make you remove anything that was installed without permission.

I would be more worried about the building regs issue...and I would re-negotiate hard.

Surveys always show up endless stuff, but something major like a loft extension done without building regs is another matter!

It sounds as if you are in a really really strong position, and in any case, I think most offers are accepted with the expectation that there will be some bargaining once the survey comes in, unless it is clearly a new or well-refurbished property. It is normal to re-negotiate under the circumstnaces you are in, so don't feel as if you are begging for a favour! And remember that however nice the EA is, he is working for the vendor, not you, and his fee will be a percentage. Just be clear about what YOU think is fair and realistic and stick to your guns.
You are right, it is a lot of money, and you don't want to be asked to pay an unfair price.

FioFio · 02/01/2007 12:08

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Message withdrawn

Tinker · 02/01/2007 12:14

Don't panic - you're in a strong position. Speak to the nice ea and get your solicitor involved - that's what you're paying them for.

Original poster
ShowOfHands · 02/01/2007 12:16

Extension was done in 1994 I think- might be wrong, but definitely early to mid 90s. It says somewhere in the ridiculous pile of paperwork when it was all done. Same with velux window and attic tampering all done at the same time.

The thing is, I don't think there is anything major to do to the house apart from sort this kitchen thing out (we would only use the attic for storage anyway so the solicitor is pretty sure we could just leave it as is- not telling the EA or vendor that we won't be using it as a room though) and get correct planning permissions. I don't know if I'm still being naive and, as some have said, I should just walk away. I love the house, could really improve it and would love to have our first child there. It's just this extension/permission business.

OP posts:
Tinker · 02/01/2007 12:20

I wouldn't walk away yet, not when you've got a builder in the family

Original poster
ShowOfHands · 02/01/2007 12:27

Right!

We are renegotiating tomorrow and the vendor can see sense and drop the price or we're walking.

OP posts:
paulaplumpbottom · 02/01/2007 12:50

God luck

TheArmadillo · 02/01/2007 13:16

Has anyone suggested indemnity insurance yet? I think that's what it is called. You should insist on them taking it out as a condition of buying the house (I think a solicitor would recomend it anyway) so that if there is a problem with planning permission with work they have done, then they have the insurance to cover it.

If you do go ahead - good luck. You sound as if you know what you are letting yourself in for.

ZacharyZoo · 02/01/2007 13:19

Hi SOH, i am a mortgage adviser, so hopefully may be able to give you some pointers to go back to the vendor with. Firstly you say that the mortgage company is happy with the survey and have not down valued the property. Did you pay for a seperate, more detailed survey? as they are quite often very detailed and can really frighten you if you don't know a lot about the construction of houses (which most of us don't!) I just think that if your DH's grandad still feels its a good buy and the lenders surveyor hasn't down valued or put a retention on the mortgage offer that the work may not be as horrendous as it first sounds. However, you are in a stronger position as anybody that goes for the property is going to come up against this, so the vendor can't just pull out and sell it to someone else, so definitely re negotiate the price. The issues around planning permission and building regs are the big ones, as the vendor could be made to demolish any works done if they don't get retrospective planning permission. I don't want to panic you as i am sure it won't come to that, but you are in a position of strength... good luck with your negotiating, i know its a hugely stressful and emotional time for you, but always tell yourself that there will be other houses, don't let them push you around! Fingers crossed for you.

Original poster
ShowOfHands · 02/01/2007 14:03

ZacharyZoo are you one of the nice mortgage advisors? Some of them seem a bit predatory

It is a separate and more detailed survey we paid for on top of the mortgage valuation inspection thingie (technical me) and we expected lots of scary stuff, but I know they are just covering their backs most of the time (ie you must have tests for damp, termites, rogue electricity monsters etc etc done or the house will collapse within a month). We were prepared for all of that and have digested it accordingly. The stuff surrounding planning permissions and lack of building reg compliance is what we couldn't have known about. My concern is that if the mortgage company would be happy to proceed with the current offer, would this make the vendor less likely to renegotiate?

Currently trying to get my head round indemnity insurance TheArmadillo. I have a pregnant brain.

Roll on tomorrow, 20wk scan and find out if we have a house after all.

OP posts:
Earlybird · 02/01/2007 14:46

It's hard to be objective when you want something so badly, and it's seemingly within your grasp. But, please realise that extensive renovations are almost always more complicated/expensive than expected. It'stressful to find "surprises" once the walls/floors are opened up. And given that the vendor/estate agent have been less than honest so far, I think you can expect some additional unexpected/unpleasant surprises. If you proceed, it's fortunate that you have builders in the family who you know will do good reputable work, and who presumably will be in a position to give you a break on cost.

Think your dh should only deal with the EA he knows/likes and who is familiar with the situation. When is he back?

Good luck with it all.

ZacharyZoo · 02/01/2007 14:51

Ooh i do try to be nice, but you are right there are a lot of quite aggressive ones about. I do have a lot of female clients that don't want to deal with men in suits! Though the mortgage company are happy with the valuation for mortgage purposes (ie if they had to repossess the property they would get their money back!) they would not agree to release funds if once they are aware of the other issues with building regs etc. The only way around that would be an indemnity insurance, but they only cover certain issues, your solicitor should be able to advise on this, but an indeminity doesn't absolve the vendor of all responsibility for not getting permission. The lender would not lend on a property that it can't re sell quickly should they have to take possession of it - sorry that sounds a bit aggressive doesn't it, but as mercenary as it sounds that is their only concern! Good luck with your scan.