Increase in transgender children.

[mumtoaninja]

Don't shoot me if this is in the wrong section...I'm fairly new and still trying to navigate my way around!
Anyway, I watched an item on the news today about an increase in the number of transgender children being referred by gps.
My very first thought was is this generational? These days, parents are much more relaxed about what their darling offspring play with. Boys are happily playing with dolls and other 'pink' stuff and girls are playing more rough and tumble 'boys' games than they did maybe 50 years ago. Don't get me wrong, I've never encouraged my children (girl & boy) to play with gender specific toys, however they have both steered towards such toys. DS is mad on action figures/cars/gross stuff whereas my DD loves anything pink and sparkly. Each has had ample opportunity to play with the others toys, also at nursery and play dates but they choose not to. I do know several parents who push dolls and such on boys because 'why shouldn't their boy have a baby doll' etc.
Genuine question - is our new found open-mindedness causing children to grow up feeling confused about their gender?

Archery Annie WE are not the ones accusing others of being abusive over medicalising mothers. I am not "flinging transphobia around" I am accusing directly several posters on here.

WE are the ones who know the system, who have been through the heartache, and still are on a daily basis. I came on this thread to have discussion on a programme that highlighted some familiar issues and talk about them with posters who maybe were starting on that process, or curious about it.

Instead Gogi and I have been harangued for our choice of words, ridiculed for our use of "social constructs" and been made to feel on 2 different threads that we are verging on abusive mothers for "allowing" our children to go through this and if that is not transphobic then I'm sorry it seems that way to me and you would not get away with it if I was gay or disabled so why should you for attacking trans children & their families?

Floundering what are you accusing others over?

You haven't been harangued over use of words or constructs nor have you been criticised for your approach to your child in distress. You have been asked questions about the risks to your child whih you have largely chosen not to answer and you have been challenged for the parts of your posts which have gone beyond your child toake broader statements about sex and gender that affect us all.

Parents on MN can be accused of child abuse for circumcising their boys or having young girls' ears pierced. If someone came on to talk about breast implants or labiaplasty for a 16 year old most people would say you should help your child accept who they are and some would say you are a child abuser I'd you let your child do this. I haven't accused you of child abuse but it seems that any issue relating to treatment of children who want to be the other sex are untouchable and unquestionable.

It seems you came on the thread to be the unquestioned voice of reason about trans kids. Did you want to be lauded as the most open-minded, understanding parent of all time against whom we should all measure ourselves?

Floundering nobody has harangued you or attacked you. There are serious questions to be asked about the current approaches to trans issue, and they affect all of us. If you don't want discussion, then don't post on a discussion board.

On the "transphobia" accusation - you seem to live in your own little bubble where only one opinion is allowed, and only you have expertise in this. There is a lot of diversity of opinion amongst both trans and not-trans people, and you do everyone a disservice by trying to shut down debate. Plenty of trans people also question gender theory and current approaches - and get shit from people like you who think there is only One True Way to approach this. (A friend of mine has taken to counting how many non-trans people each day call her - a long-transitioned trans woman - "transphobic" for discussing gender in the way that has got you so upset here. Her count for yesterday was four.)

Either you can constructively engage, or you can try to shut down people who think differently from you by accusing them of bigotry (you won't be the first). Which do you think will help most?

There could be an interesting discussion, and, yes, there are serious questions to be asked.

However when various posters compare what my child is going through to wanting to be a llama or someone playing about and pretending to be a boy for a few months and having great fun at it, it completely minimises what my son is going through.

It's the same with the 'just help your child to love themselves' type comments, as if it were that easy. That's like telling someone with severe depression that you were a bit sad once and snapped out of it so there's no need for all those anti depressants.

Floundering and I both came onto this thread to try and help people to see what it is like to be living through this, to try and help people understand the process (not for a virtual pat on the back ) but there are certain people so caught up on their own views that they are unwilling to listen to the reality of the situation we are discussing.

Archery I did NOT come on to these threads to engage in wider discussion about adult trans issues, as I & GoGi have repeatedly said we thought we would answer the OP, share a little about what the experience of having a trans kid is and what the reality is in todays health service.

Of course I would encourage any child expressing dysphoric thoughts to try therapies that helped them be more comfortable with their own bodies, and explore other support before going down the trans route, dear god we have spent HOURS doing nothing else.

Why is it so hard to get through to people, and I cannot emphasise this enough it seems, is that we parents spend HOURS with and without our children, talking through pros & cons, side effects vs benefits, of treatments vs letting them be for a while to see whether they have " grown out of it" , with HCp's specialists our own GP's & family counsellors, and believe me we explore EVERY angle before seeking anything more. The first time we spoke about the possibility of surgery I cried for weeks, I still do at times. It seemed to me horrific that a perfectly healthy set of breasts should be removed, it still does when I allow myself to think about it. Which is why it is a LONG LONG process before they are allowed to even look into that.

It seems you came on the thread to be the unquestioned voice of reason about trans kids. Did you want to be lauded as the most open-minded, understanding parent of all time against whom we should all measure ourselves? oh perlease....... grow up, this is about the children as discussed in the Theroux programme, which was my initial reason for posting.

Did it ever occur to you anti posters that children and young adults in the community are supported by the subject being in the mainstream media more and more and it might actually save lives?

MN has up to now been for me a place of support and reasoned discussion, where posters share experiences in hoped that it might help their own situation & if someone somewhere is lurking who is helped by that discussion being opened then great.

We can agree to disagree on points of theory, that is healthy but why do I have to accept anyone of YOU is right & I am wrong when you have no personal and current experience of the subject? I fully accept I am far behind most of you in the feminist theories you keep banging on about, and I have never said I am an expert, but sweet jesus am I learning a lot very very fast!

All I can do is deal with the here & now, with the tools I have and the information given to me by the experts in this field.

Paris Lees writes about what being a transgender child feels like in the Guardian today
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/10/obama-conversion-therapy-lgbt-teens-leelah-alcorn

Paris Lees is so misogynistic and has written such awful stuff. I don't know why anyone still takes Paris seriously.

Let's face it, on these threads no one wants to take any Trans people's experiences seriously. My point was, that she writes about being a CHILD and how it felt.

I have to say I don't understand the argument 'there is a difference between sex and gender, trans people want to change gender, gender is a social construct, ergo if we were more equal there wouldn't be trans people'. The kids taking blockers (correct me if I'm wrong GoGi, Floundering) aren't doing so because they want to dress in the other gender clothes and change name. They are doing so because they reject their sex - their physical characteristics. So telling them gender is a social construct only goes so far, surely?

Is this the article where Paris Lees says being catcalled and felt up on the bus validates womanhood?

No Flora, try reading it.

My favourite quote from Paris Lees is 'ideology bores the shit out of me' which seems to manifest as taking great pride in not thinking deeply about anything, she's not someone whose opinion I respect on anything tbh.

Pomeral, yes, I think for some it is a dysphoria about the sexed body rather than particularly about gender. For some trans people it is both sex and gender.

But most 'trans kids' - i.e. gender variant children who are in contact with NHS services because of it, will never take blockers and will not grow up to be trans adults. For many of them it is about gender.

Various people on this and other threads have described being a gender variant child or having a gender variant child, but for some reason some people seem keen to ignore those experiences as not 'real.'

But temporary experiences are still 'real' and we don't know at the time if it is temporary. I don't really understand why the experience of Paris Lees counts for more than the experience of the many, many people who are trying to talk here and being closed down.

Speaking as an adult rather than a child, I have this constant feeling that my body is wrong. I feel as though parts of my body are missing, as though other parts of my body shouldn't be there. It is a feeling I have had for as long as I can remember. For me, it is a nagging wrongness to join other differences I feel (I am also on the autistic spectrum) and is not something I wish to take further, I have accepted my body as it is and ignore the wrongness as best I can. I would never have been able to open up to my family about this feeling at any age (hence my name change to post this - I am not ashamed of who I am but have no wish to alienate myself further from those I have to live with), and am so grateful that other children have parents they can open up to. The hysterectomy I had for medical reasons in my early 30's gave an unexpected psychological benefit, I have felt so much happier since I have not had to deal with that part of my life.

The thing is, I have learnt to live with what I have, but I have also struggled with severe depression, extremely low self esteem and many years of hating my body. I also know that if I was to change my gender, I would also identify as gay, as I am sexually interested in males, not females, which brings its own problems (it's not right, but true). So yes, I have learnt to live with myself, but for those whose feelings of wrongness are stronger, I can fully understand why people of ANY age would consider medication and operations to take things further.

And as has been pointed out, it takes years of counselling and support for anybody to take things to the point of having the operations to fully convert from one gender to the other. I know adults who are at various stages of the process, some who have had the operations, some who are waiting and some who have decided they are not yet ready to go that far, and the struggles they have gone through mentally, emotionally and with those around them is huge. It something anybody, of any age, can do on a whim.

Last sentence should read

It isn't something anybody, of any age, can do on a whim

when you have no personal and current experience of the subject?

Why do you assume this of strangers, Floundering?

Archery because I would have thought it would at least make posters more sympathetic to the points many of us are trying to make even if they didn't agree.

If that is not the case than I apologise.

I can't comment on Paris Lees as haven't met her before but that article seemed very heartfelt & spot on, the quotes from anti trans folks seemed very familiar too, maybe MN-ers?! [grins]

Paris Lees is prone to writing articles such as her one praising men who street-harrass women, saying when men treat her "like a piece of meat" it makes her feel "absolutely awesome", really good about herself and the rest of us should lighten up. I'm sure that's heartfelt, too, but it directly endangers women by reinforcing in print for asshole men everything they've always thought was true anyway. ("Smile, sexy! No? Don't be such a bitch when men compliment you!")

I don't think Paris is a useful role model for anyone.

That Paris Lees article is both appropriative and dangerous. What is "conversion therapy" for transgender issues? Presumably any therapy that might lead a person to conclude that they are not transgender and yet we hear on here that trans people must get years of therapy before any medical intervention can be contemplated. There are many transactivists (including Paris Lees it seems) who advocate that people who think they may be transgender should not get therapy that might lead them to think they are not transgender. They are appropriating gay rights issues around conversion therapy.

Dear god, I just read it, and you're right. Calling counselling "conversion therapy" and likening it to gay conversion efforts is pretty out of order, IMO.

(But as I said, I've long stopped expecting any sense from Paris Lees.)

I've had a think, Floundering and wondered - have you read any of the blogs by gender-critical trans women and trans men out there? You might find them very illuminating.

If you don't already read them, and want suggestions, I'd be happy to list some.

ArcheryAnnie I'd be interested in reading the blogs, if you could please recommend them.

(I'm about to go and get some work done, and will be offline tomorrow during the day, hobNong, but will post some tomorrow night.)

Thanks

Paris sounds a real charmer!!

But to be fair the "conversion" therapies she is referring to are ones that are very much frowned upon my many types of psychiatric/psychotherapy practitioners because of the negative and destructive way they are conducted.

" Pray away the Gay" and mass religious ceremonies asking the sky fairy to cleanse the sinful victim of his or her demons are hardly ways of supporting someone with serious issues and can be seriously harmful, and I am surprised that someone as well read as you Flora hasn't heard of the terms before as they are well documented.