Increase in transgender children.

[mumtoaninja]

Don't shoot me if this is in the wrong section...I'm fairly new and still trying to navigate my way around!
Anyway, I watched an item on the news today about an increase in the number of transgender children being referred by gps.
My very first thought was is this generational? These days, parents are much more relaxed about what their darling offspring play with. Boys are happily playing with dolls and other 'pink' stuff and girls are playing more rough and tumble 'boys' games than they did maybe 50 years ago. Don't get me wrong, I've never encouraged my children (girl & boy) to play with gender specific toys, however they have both steered towards such toys. DS is mad on action figures/cars/gross stuff whereas my DD loves anything pink and sparkly. Each has had ample opportunity to play with the others toys, also at nursery and play dates but they choose not to. I do know several parents who push dolls and such on boys because 'why shouldn't their boy have a baby doll' etc.
Genuine question - is our new found open-mindedness causing children to grow up feeling confused about their gender?

- this is a good article

Dd is 9 when she turned two she stopped wearing dresses and skirts, she would scream like acid had been poured over her. She would only take her hat off once her hair had been cut in a boys style, asked for a willy for her Christmas present one year. Although we are pretty sure that she is not transgender any more she refuses to wear any clothes that looks like girls however this year she asked and got an Elsa bear from frozen.

She is who she is, a quirky (also has aspergers) eccentric, off centre child who we love, who may or may not be transgender, transsexual, gay straight but we will love and support her all the way.

We haven't gone through puberty yet and very late but we haven't done the talk although she know that I bleed she has never asked, this will need to be done with care and still trying to figure that one out.

Pommerell I'd hazard a guess that if your oestrogen and progesterone supply was removed and you were given testosterone injections you would STILL feel female.

It is certainly true to say that the very distinct marketing of 'girl' and 'boy' stuff to even the very tiniest of children has drawn more focus on the idea of gender. It is also true that while there isn't consensus on the definitions and societal implications there is a growing feeling among disparate social groups that gender and biological sex are very much not the same thing.

What role (if any) this has in children desiring, needing or feeling able to transition is unclear from what I can tell.

A child's sense of who they are doesn't start at puberty - it's much earlier. If you told a blonde haired two year old that they had black hair they would insist you were wrong, yet there is no intrinsic difference between a black haired child and a blonde haired child. It's not hormones, sexual feelings, liking pink that makes someone intrinsically male or female. It's your whole sense of who and what you are - presumably you KNOW your are female, and knew you where as a child. Imagine being 3 or 4 and someone tells you you're a boy despite you KNOWING you're a girl. And they insist you are wrong, and everyone else insists you're wrong. Even at that age you'd still have a reasonably well enough developed sense of identity to realise you don't fit what everyone says you are.

five*'s experience with her dd is worrying.

I would not dispute that some children might grow up to be transgendered, but the idea that they know this at 6 or7 years old seems very unlikely. Children of that age get also sorts of wonderful ideas- I walked backwards for months when I was seven; my dd also insisted she was a llama for nearly a year at that age.

My point is it must be very difficult to know the difference and there must be a risk that a child is supported in their choice to live as the other gender , reinforcing that feeling, whereas they might well have grown out of it otherwise .

Titchy your analogy doesn't work. If you're blonde haired child insists they have black hair, you'd want to understand why your child believes they have black hair and to find acceptance of who they are.

Hugo with respect that is bullshit.

They may not KNOW that what they are feeling, their very real and strong feelings is labelled transgender but believe me some DO know at a VERY early age & in fact they are the ones where it is more clear cut IMHO as they are SO sure from such an early age before they know about constraints of society and sexual identity.

It may seem unlikely to you but search Louis Theroux programme (from last sunday I believe) and watch how they deal with it in the US. By allowing a child to express themselves and be supported with counselling, acknowledgment of their sense of difference and ultimately if needed blockers, hormones & surgery the child feels validated, and allowed to grow into whatever he or she wishes to be.

The earlier children are supported in their wishes to be seen as trans, even if the do not transition fully the better the outcomes in later life, less psychological damage and a greater chance of going on to have happy fulfilled careers and family lives. FACT

The suicide rate amongst unsupported transgender teens is horrendous, and although every bone in my body intially screamed it was wrong for my child, I would rather have a live child who is now a boy than bury a dead daughter.

These children need a voice and loving support not telling they are not normal or will grow out of it. They may well just be exploring but they need to know that is OK

titchy yes - if you did that now. Now that I have breasts, have experienced heterosexual sex with men, have borne and birthed a child. If you stopped me ever receiving female sex hormones and injected me with testosterone, meaning I never experienced any of the above....I'm not so sure I'd be sure of my femininity?

I'll be honest, I think my 'gender' identity is completely bound up with physicality. My breasts, my clitoris, my vagina. It's hard to know though, I see that - because there is no way for me to experience anything other than a female body and female socialisation.

Flora - yes the same as if my boy insisted they were a girl - I'd want to understand why!

Femininity and gender aren't the same thing though....

These are the definitions of sex and gender from the World Health Organisation.

www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/

What do we mean by "sex" and "gender"?

Sometimes it is hard to understand exactly what is meant by the term "gender", and how it differs from the closely related term "sex".

"Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

To put it another way:

"Male" and "female" are sex categories, while "masculine" and "feminine" are gender categories.

Aspects of sex will not vary substantially between different human societies, while aspects of gender may vary greatly.

Some examples of sex characteristics :

Women menstruate while men do not
Men have testicles while women do not
Women have developed breasts that are usually capable of lactating, while men have not
Men generally have more massive bones than women
Some examples of gender characteristics :

In the United States (and most other countries), women earn significantly less money than men for similar work
In Viet Nam, many more men than women smoke, as female smoking has not traditionally been considered appropriate
In Saudi Arabia men are allowed to drive cars while women are not
In most of the world, women do more housework than men

Thank you tibby and sirzy and good to see you again floundering you helped me a huge amount on a thread under a previous name a while back

My son came to me feeling 'differently' when he was 7, I did the whole denial thing, the 'it's just a phase' thing, but I could see him becoming more and more withdrawn, introverted and ashamed of himself.

We had another year and a half of talking, then going to professionals, getting help through various sources, and the minute he realised I was taking him seriously he was like a different child.

He has now been living as a male for over a year. His dad, grandad and granny have disowned him, I've had social services called on me several times, and I have had to move hundreds of miles away and have lost people I regarded as friends because I haven't dismissed my son's feelings and people are confused and upset and embarrassed by that.

Despite everything he has been through he has never been happier. He is getting the help he needs, the support he needs and now that he is on puberty blockers he can relax and take the time to make the choices that are right for him.

He has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria of childhood, when he reaches 15/16 he will, if he continues to feel as he does, be diagnosed with gender dysphoria and will be able to choose for himself whether he wants to continue with hormones etc.

Nobody is encouraging him, the clinic he attends and his school and I are all very open and accepting of the fact he may very well change his mind, and my son knows this. At the moment he feels, very strongly, that this is how he wishes to be and I am going to support him whether he feels that way for another week, month or a lifetime.

To compare the way my son and other trans people feel to wanting to walk backwards or be an animal is, again, insulting.

If your child comes to you telling you they hate themselves, they are in constant tears over the changes that will happen to them, even flinching when you say their name because it doesn't feel like them would you really just dismiss it?

The approach on the Louis Theroux programme is not the approach used in the UK. There isn't a one size fits all solution.

Most children who have contact with the NHS due to gender identity grow up to not be transgender but to be gay.

There are some guidelines here for the UK. I don't know if a more recent version exists:

www.rcpsych.ac.uk/files/pdfversion/cr63.pdf

Five, it sounds like you're doing an amazing job. I hope you have lots of support.

Gender identity is a totally different thing though, Flora and in the trans community ( if I have got this right in my continuing education!) they see that while you have your assigned or birth gender according to the genitalia you are born with (penis = boy, vagina = girl ) the gender identity is what you grow up feeling, and identifying as.

Most people find their assigned gender matches their gender identity, but trans kids / people don't.

Almond I agree the US approach is different to the UK but they are learning loads from it, and I quoted it to show how very young children CAN have very strong feelings. One of the things I liked so much about the programme though was that the doctors interviewed were keen to support the child in becoming less dysphoric and happy with whatever stage they wanted to get to, loads of early intervention and support psychologically for the child AND family.

That report you linked to while interesting is now 17 years out of date (how 1998 seems like yesterday!!) and management & thinking is galloping forward in the management of trans people especially children. I would dispute that most kids who identify as trans actually turn out to be gay but if you have evidence of this I would be glad to read it.

The important thing is that these children turn out to be happy with whatever path they choose

they are SO sure from such an early age before they know about constraints of society and sexual identity

Children know about the constraints of society from an incredibly early age. My 2-year-old dd walked into a shoe shop, pointed at the rack of shoes and said 'that side is for girls (pink shoes) and that side is for boys (blue)'. I had tried to keep her life as gender neutral as possible - clothes/toys etc., but she had still picked up the messages from the world around her.

This much more recent NHS document explains:

1. That gender variant children becoming trans adults is rare, while gender variant children becoming gay adults is common.
2. That children are assigned a sex at birth not a gender.
3. Why the UK follows a particular approach, which particularly mentions elements it does not follow (which were shown in the Louis Theroux programme - mastectomy on a fourteen year old girl who had only recently been diagnosed for example, would not be done in the UK).

www.rcpsych.ac.uk/files/pdfversion/cr63.pdf

Sorry, this document:

www.gires.org.uk/assets/DOH-Assets/pdf/doh-children-and-adolescents.pdf

As a child and teenager I wanted to be a boy, even changed my name. My parents were supportive and allowed me freedom to be me. I will forever be grateful for that. I am not a boy, or a man. I am 100% woman, I gradually gained self esteem and grew to realise that I am me and that I liked being me. I'm actually quite girly now. My mother was gobsmacked when I bought my first dress at 21.
There is more going on for these children in that they genuinely feel different physically and not just socially like me.

I do see where you're coming from though OP. Hopefully kids like I was, who are just unhappy being socially female/male (and this can seem physical too as I hated my post puberty female body and covered it with boys clothes) are not being pushed towards being transgender before they really know themselves. We can hope that's not happening, but can we be sure?

Nikki - you are right, now imagine if that little girl was looking longingly at the "boys shoes" or a little boy at the "girls shoes" and feeling frustrated because he KNEW that it wasn't "right" to feel that way.

Tomatodizy Believe me there is no way anyone could push a child towards transgender, it's INCREDIBLY difficult path to take with loads of psychological checks and counselling to ascertain the unhappiness the child is experiencing is being diagnosed with the appropriate treatment. No-one would choose that path for themselves or their child without much heartache and soul searching.

If my dd had looked longingly at the blue shoes I would have bought her some blue shoes and told her there was absolutely nothing wrong with feeling that way.

FGS it's that basic.

I have never heard a satisfactory explanation of what gender identity is.

"now imagine if that little girl was looking longingly at the "boys shoes" or a little boy at the "girls shoes" and feeling frustrated because he KNEW that it wasn't "right" to feel that way."

We would all be a lot better off if it stopped being 'not right' to want to wear particular clothes/shoes or do particular things simply because of our biological sex.