Is this child abuse?

[demoralised]

At the risk of making myself feel even more crap about it....

Yesterday 4yo DS had a strop because I wouldn't buy him a Cornish pasty from the pasty shop. We sat on the pavement for 10 minutes, in the middle of a busy pedestrian precinct. Eventually he said he'd have a scone after all, then he didn't want to walk and eat it (he likes to sit down while eating). Finally lost my rag and attempted to drag DS along -- first by his hand and then by his foot because I couldn't get hold of his hand in his big heavy winter coat. He wasn't crying or resisting.

This prompted 2 passerbys to shout, stop me, screech that I was committing child abuse, they wouldn't let me, they would phone the police if I didn't stop. Tried to switch to pulling DS along by the arm but that still wasn't good enough and they continued to threaten to phone police. So sat down on the pavement again, burst in to tears, since I really didn't seem to have any other choices.

Another mother later approached me and said she was very upset for me, those people shouldn't have interfered, agreed that the only other tactic I thought might work to make DS cooperate, which was buying sweets to chivvy DS along would have been giving the wrong message (have a strop, get some sweets).

The shouters went off to have some lunch... I was still sitting there for another 25 minutes. So upset that I just let DS dawdle the whole way home. I didn't get to have my lunch for another 4 hours.

Was it child abuse?
Should I have shouted, threatened or smacked DS? I never smack and rarely shout, but wonder if people would have threatened to phone the police if I had just done those things, instead.

demoralised - sorry you had such a crap day yesterday. Not sure what you mean by dragging him 'by his foot'. I know I've certainly had days where by behaviour, when viewed in isolation, could be criticised.

Demoralised - next time tell them to b**r off!! My DS (aged 8) has ADHD and when he has a strop and won't move I can end up shouting at him too!! I've done exactly the same - so don't beat yourself up. One "kind" passerby told me off too - I told her if she could get him to do as he's told she could have him - she almost ran away. Sometimes kids drive us mad, but it wasn't child abuse. I'm sure the next time you go out with your DS it will be fine.

Oh Demoralised, poor you. I am not surprised you are feeling demoralised, and I honestly think that it is a 'there but for the grace of God go I...' situation for many of us!
Admittedly dragging him by his foot does sound like a bit of a spectacle...but by that time you were deep into a situation that you wouldn't have wished to have got yourself in! I bet this morning you can see how it all started, and how you would have re-acted to the initial pasty contratemps with the glorious luxury of hindsight! You know he likes to sit down to eat, you must have been in too much of a rush, so perhaps next time you can negotiate 'yes, you will buy the pasty/scone BUT then you will save it until you get home', or whatever.

Also, 3 cheers for the second woman who intervened to help you - far more constructive than shouting at people who are clearly under pressure!

How are you feeling today?

Doesn't sound like child abuse to me. You got physical yes, and you agree it wasn't the best tactic to use, but who's perfect 100% of the time? Sometimes we all get it wrong. That's not abuse. And you stopped and tried something else.

And who hasn't bundled a resisting toddler into a car seat or pushchair at some point? not a lot of different between that and what you did. You weren't dragging him over rocks were you? If your son was in pain he would have cried.

My husband swings our son by his arms upside down and he loves it, so going on that, a hard pull by the foot or arm probably wasn't painful.

If those passers by had really wanted to help the situation they would have helped you and your son, not stirred things and criticised.

There is no way I'd sit on a pavement for 25 minutes, and never have !!!! A child can not be allowed to win in this kind of situation, or he'll pull this stunt time after time.
I've been in this situation, only with two(DS twins), throwing a wobbler,I would have dragged them straight home and put them to bed and often did !!!
I agree I would have told the shouters to bugger off and mind their own business. It never ceases to amaze me how total strangers feel they can comment when, they could see you had enough on your plate trying to control a stoppy child.

I would stop worrying what others think, and next time take firm action, if thats what you feel works best.

It doesn't sound like child abuse to me. I think smacking is child abuse, but you cannot always negotiate with a child and sometimes force is needed.

fwiw, I'd think I'd have given in and given sweets, if that's what it took your ds to move. Then played back the situation and made mental notes about how to avoid it happening next time.

ask them if they would offer their knowledgeable and learned wisdom to perhaps move your son for uou...
GRRR @ them

Fucking hell - it would have been a good thing if one of these people were around when Jamie Bulger was treated badly in the street - maybe he would still be with us today!!

If he was small enough to pick up and carry off then nobody would have complained! I think they were really nasty and unhelpful. It's not as if your ds was screaming in agony or you were hitting him or anything - I don't really understand their reaction. Poor you, you sound really upset by it all.

Oh and I am not saying you were treating him badly but sometimes I think it is evident of our double standards when threads like this emerge - 'god did you see that person treating their child like that' - ''I stood up for poor child' - etc etc etc but when someone does it to us guilt kicks in and we want reassurance!!

Sorry but this all seems like double standards to me - maybe they should have minded their own business but maybe they thought, as many of us do at times, that children are being treated as they should not be and don't want to leave it in case something worse happens later!!

i just walk off and leave dd1 when she get like this. maybe i'm mean but she runs after me after a few minutes.

I have stepped in when I've seen children left alone crying in cars or being hit - saw a woman whacking a small child around the head and shouted at her in similar terms. But this sounds very different to me, though clearly I wasn't there. I think most of us are familiar with the child who won't move syndrome. Luckily ds is small enough to pick up. If he only ate while sitting down and I gave him a scone I personally would have bought a newspaper and either sat in a cafe with him while I had a coffee/my own lunch or sat on a park bench and read the paper but we don't always feel so calm and rational when faced with a screeching or infuriatingly immobile child. I'm sure demoralised would agree that she didn't handle this to 'perfection' but she wasn't beating her ds and she says he wasn't even crying or protesting.

I can see what you're saying twinkie.

My view is that if you see a worrying situation, you should be non confrontational, go over to help while trying to suss things out. Just winds things up by shouting you'll call the police.

If those people in the shopping centre genuinely felt alarmed but didn't want to go over, they could have called security or a shop assistant. I have had security people in shops asking if I am ok with my boys in a helpful way. I doesn't upset me as much as a shouted comment would.

I didn't have enough money to go into a cafe, or buy the pasty. It took us a year to get DS out of the pushchair and it's just so typical, he strops and lies down on the pavement even on short walks, although he only did it once to somebody outside family (childminder). I was so pleased when she said she couldn't negotiate or persuade or even scold him into getting up and walking, either.

I feel awful about it... I hate going anywhere with DS on foot because I never know how long it will take to get home again, or whether something like this might happen.

demoralised, if I were you, I'd get the pushchair out again and bugger what people think. It all sounds far too stressful without it. And if he will walk, use the pushchair to carry your shopping. I suspect my ds will be the same about walking. He can walk, but he's agonisingly slow.

I never go anywhere on foot with DS if I actually have a destination I have got to reach. We go for walks, but only when I have got hours and hours and masses of patience. He is younger than yours though. Still a toddler. I think it's completely normal: YOu can't always avoid these situations, but don't think you are the only one. There are plenty of kids who are never even taken to the shops out there!

Sorry if I upset you Demoralised!!

If I were you I would probably go back to the pushchair until the summer when the weather is better and everything seems more fun and easier to handle.

Demoralised, my four year old son can be difficult and unpredictable at times.

What I find works best is if, before we leave the house, we plan out EXACTLY where we are going to go, which shops we are going to go to, which buses we are going to get etc, what time we are going to eat if applicable or whatever, and make sure he understands all those before we leave. He is on the autistic spectrum, but this is one of the many parenting tips for autistic children that works well with non-autistic children too. If he has a clear plan in his mind of where you are going and what you are doing, hopefully he will be less likely to scupper your plans by suddenly demanding something that's not on the agenda.

Have mucho sympathy btw, what the first two passers-by did was so unhelpful, sounds to me like they wanted to have a pop at you rather than to be genuinely helpful. Have had many bad experiences out with DS1 so I know the feeling.

I agree with dinosaur,
I often do that with mine, I find it also works well if there is somthing in it for them as well, I usually say, if you let Mummy do her shopping first, then we'll go to the park to eat lunch/have a ride on the merry go round, etc, but if your naughty that will not happen.
I also find this works well when taking them somewhere they have not been before, were you expect good behaviour, explaining it all to them first.

Demoralised,I think we've all done this kind of thing at some point.My DP lifted my 9 yr old in to the house when he refused to come in.I don't allow him to get away with such behaviour and the same goes with my 3 yr old DD.These people should have been more concerned with their own behaviour which was unaceptable.
What you did was right in the situation(ie busy shopping area)The leaving behind a little works but in this day and age we have to be careful and you could have lost sight of him.
As for the jamie bulger case I believe that was two children who took him and no-one would have interfered.I find a case I heard about where a baby was punched to death in a busy train station and no one stepped in.Also how many of us did or still do an arm and a leg and other such swinging games.Moving the child this way prob seemed fun to him.
I know how it feels to have someone accuse you without cause.My son used to scream when I ran the vacumm over and one day 2 police turned up saying someone had reported that my child was being abused.The strangest thing is I lived in a flat above 2 shops in the middle of a town.People should look at whats happening first.If a child is truely being abused you won't see it happening in the street often as most abuse happens behind closed doors.
I do smack if nothing else works and I think I would object to anyone who told me it was abuse.A choice between a smack and a burnt hand I'd prefer smacked hand.
Twinkie It's only double standards when said by someone trully abuses their child which demoralised wasn't

In case it may be of interest, I am posting a link to a thread we had a while ago on what is and is not helpful behaviour by onlookers - I started it in Special Needs, but really it is relevant to anybody whose child has ever gone off on one in a public place! It's here

No singingmum I think you have the wrong end of the stick - it is double standards that we sometimes involve ourselves in other people's lives (without being asked) because we perceive that they are doing something that goes against what we think is the right way to treat a child/adult but if someone does this to us we are up in arms about it!!

Oh and there was a little girl who was beaten to death by her mothers noyfriend in the paper today - the poor little mite - if only someone had had the guts to phone the police - maybe they didn't because they were afraid of being classed as a busy body!!

If the police knocked at my door I would genuinely be pleased to let them in and have a look around and see that DD was ok - I think if more people took the sort of attitude that I do and Social Services actually took these people seriously less child abuse would be gotten away with!!

I would be more than happy for someone making a genuine concerned enquiry to intervene supportively in the way that best suited their conscience if they were worried about my DS. I would not respond well at all if they simply shouted at me, when they weren't sure of the situation. If Demoralised HAD been abusing her DS (which I don't think anyone is suggesting she was), the second woman's intervention would have been far more effective, IMO. And it certainly added to Demoralised's misery at that point.