Is this child abuse?

[demoralised]

At the risk of making myself feel even more crap about it....

Yesterday 4yo DS had a strop because I wouldn't buy him a Cornish pasty from the pasty shop. We sat on the pavement for 10 minutes, in the middle of a busy pedestrian precinct. Eventually he said he'd have a scone after all, then he didn't want to walk and eat it (he likes to sit down while eating). Finally lost my rag and attempted to drag DS along -- first by his hand and then by his foot because I couldn't get hold of his hand in his big heavy winter coat. He wasn't crying or resisting.

This prompted 2 passerbys to shout, stop me, screech that I was committing child abuse, they wouldn't let me, they would phone the police if I didn't stop. Tried to switch to pulling DS along by the arm but that still wasn't good enough and they continued to threaten to phone police. So sat down on the pavement again, burst in to tears, since I really didn't seem to have any other choices.

Another mother later approached me and said she was very upset for me, those people shouldn't have interfered, agreed that the only other tactic I thought might work to make DS cooperate, which was buying sweets to chivvy DS along would have been giving the wrong message (have a strop, get some sweets).

The shouters went off to have some lunch... I was still sitting there for another 25 minutes. So upset that I just let DS dawdle the whole way home. I didn't get to have my lunch for another 4 hours.

Was it child abuse?
Should I have shouted, threatened or smacked DS? I never smack and rarely shout, but wonder if people would have threatened to phone the police if I had just done those things, instead.

Sorry Twinkie wires got crossed so to speak.
I did let the police in however I was angry as my son was crying for less than 5 mins.When the police turned up he was in his high chair in a nappy eating(or should that have been wearing)a chocolate bar so they could see he was fine.
I wrote a letter and put it on the door for whoever rang them inviting them to put their mind at rest and meet myself and my son.Funny thing is they never took up the offer and I left the letter up for a while.
I think that people have gotten to a point where self preservation has become more important than whats right.My friend was dragged down a path being beaten by her ex and although she shouted to a neighbour for help and could see people watching from their windows they did nothing.
Lots of people willing to comment when a parent needs help not criticism no one willing to stand up to the real abusers though.

Oh Demoralised, I hope you are having a nicer day today! Ds was also a pain about walking and we got lots of comments about 'he should be walking not using a buggy now' esp from neighbours and things only started falling into place a four or five months before his fifth birthday. Even now, at five and a half, ds likes to moan about walking but he has come to accept that he will have to walk.

FWIW, I don't think what you did was abuse but can see that a passer-by may be concerned - however, as others have said, if they really wanted to help, they didn't go about it the right way (apart from the sympathetic mummy at the end).

I'm a right old busybody then! I have called the police lots of times, shouted at men hitting people including girlfriends and, once, a bewildered tramp, intervened when I felt kids were at risk, and dh went to court a couple of years ago to give evidence against a mugger (whole street turned out at 2am to protect a neighbour - I was very proud!). However,I really don't think demoralised's situation sounds similar to any of those. I hope I would try to help out rather than shout in the street if I was concerned.

I htink you tok the whole event too seriously at the time- and sweets woul d not have scarred him for life in this instance and the lesson could have been taught at home

AGree with Twinkie that the Bulger cases till haints me

haunts even

I disagree that the lesson could be taught at home Codswallop - one of the reasons that children play up in the street is precisely because they know it is a public place and they therefore have more negotiation leverage - they are not as likely to be shouted at/ threatened/ smacked/ have their toy confiscated/ whatever it is, because of the embarrassement factor. Sometimes, it does feel easier to give in and just let them get away with murder because otherwise passers by will stare, but you just have to grit your teeth and use the same discipline methods you'd use if you weren't being watched - kids pick up on these things really quickly. They have very limited negotiation tools, and we can't blame them for using all the ones they've got to the limit.

WE wil have to disagree as I dont think that my ds put so much thought and strategy into planning his strops - he is/was instinctive and would tantrum when he felt like it, although I managed to contian them by bribery (and no he doenst as k for sweets when stropping now at 5.5) or distraction,

I feel there is a time and place for sitting it out and in the street is not one of them. Its game of brinkamnship and often escalates the situation and makes the row become somenthing it needn't and engenders much upset all around in the process.

Not really on thread, but I recently read that Blake Morrison 'As If' about the Bulger trial, and it really scared me. Truly awful.

Demoralised, really feel for you. My son can be a spoilt brat when out shopping and I must admit I'm of the give in school.....not buying him whatever he wants, but I do try to placate with sweets etc. I just don't have the energy. And of course it wasn't child abuse, ridiculous. You were just having a bad day and God knows we all have plenty of them pet.

demoralised - just echoing the reassurances that everyone has already posted - definately not child abuse! I'm feeling like the worst mother in the world at the moment. DS1 (11) and I were having a disagreement about half an hour ago, he was really rude and shouted at me, so I told him to go to his room and calm down for 10 minutes (he has ADHD). Big refusals at the bottom of the stairs, he then squared up to me, tried to push me against the wall and intimidate me. I'm not easily scared and my instant reaction was to push him back onto the stairs. But in doing so, I hurt his back on the stair. Part of me thinks " serves you right" and the rest of me is horrified that I could do that to an 11 year old and that I'm the adult here. He's doenstairs, calm and quiet as if nothing has happened (the MOST maddening part of the ADHD!!). What should I have done???

For what it's worth, I agree with what has already been said.

sorry rushing, what I meant was been there (except don't quite understand the foot bit can't quite see how you did it) but anywhere been there done that will no doubt be facing a similar situation many many more times. Two of them? Hmmm bet they wouldn't have said anything if on their own, plus the woman how understood was on her own so that just shows you and she probably has the t-shirt too. I never smack, but I shout too often. Hope your day is going better.

My ds 1 was never a problem, but ds2 is a stubborn little monster and at 2.5 can't always be reasoned with.
There have been many occasions when I've had to drag him by his arm or coat (hands full of other stuff) and we've been by a busy road, so letting go is not an option.
If he had reins, he'd be dangling from them not walking nicely.

If someone had had a go at me in this situation, they would have got as good as they gave as ds2's antics are guarenteed to rouse me to anger very quickly.

Lara2, what else could you have done? Sorry he got hurt as I know that will be making you feel even worse. Children need rules and guidelines so in that instant I would say sorry for hurting but still keep to the up to your room bit otherwise they get confused anybody would but often the heat of the moment results in what we don't want, we all know that. Thing I keep hoping for is it wont continue for too long them people depress me by telling me about their teenagers/children in their 20s!!!!!!!!

Demoralised - My dd does the same sort of thing on almost every trip out. We can be walking along quite alright when all of a sudden something will annoy her and she either runs off or stand still and refuses to move. I have tried every tactic under the sun and now i have ds i cannot run after her really. The only thing that seems to work is walking off and leaving her. I never go very far and she always comes running in the end.
It wasn't child abuse, you were stressed out and upset not thinking clearly.
Did you say anything to the people interrferring ??
3 people once commented on my dd's behaviour whilst she was still in a pushchair. We were on the bus and her pushchair was facing away from me, as thats the only way it would fit. She screamed her head off for the entire journey and i could here several people moaning and making a fuss about it. Eventually a man said "if you turned her roiund she might shut up" and another said "she's crying because she can't see you, don't you realise that ".
I just turned around and said "I would thank you all to mind your own buissness, she is crying because she is tired nothing else, and i am not going to try and turn the pushchair around on a crowded moving bus, so unless you have got anything helpful to say then SHUT UP.
It stunned them into silence if nothing else.

Please don't feel bad about this. It has happened now, and you will perhaps feel more in control next time if you think of a few tactics before going out.
I have to say, i would of given in and bribed with sweets.

As usual in these incidents what enrages me the most is how free strangers are with their opinions and instructions.

demoralised, agree you should go back to using pushchair. Or go shopping without him as much as poss.

Nutcracker, storming response to unwanted comments! You wouldn't mind if people said: "It looks like she wants to turn around, would you like me to do it for you? Or hold your shopping while you do it?" But they don't, do they. I did once say to someone "Thank you for your advice, but I'm not telling you how to sit and read your paper, so don't tell me how to travel on the train if you don't mind". That raised a few smiles...

Oh nutcraker, well done!

nutcraCker

I was on a bus once sitting opposite two old ladies and as we pulled into the bus station they started complaining about a woman outside. The buggy had its back to us and she was standing in front of it flapping her arms about. One of the old ladies started on "look at the way shes hitting that child blah blah blah" She was actually trying to flap a wasp away from her little girl and its so annoying how people always assume the worst. Cant really give any advice on the tantrums but its not up to strangers to make you feel worse than you did already.

remember dd1 havent a strop in the middle of a main road in the industrial estate. i just grabbed her amr and dragged her across the road. i had some loory driver coming the other way, not seeing that she had had a strop, blaring his horn at me and mouthing not to hit her. all i was doing was getting her out of the road with one hand on her arm as was pushing dd2 at the time.

It is funny how these stickybeaks are never there when a child really is in danger. I have found middle-age (about 50ish) women to be worst and they should have some sympathy. When ds twins crack off on one, which thankfully they don't do that often I can sometimes get very flustered!

The whole situation can get out of hand. That is why in the supermarket I insist they sit in the trolley, I have walked away from the trolley before, just to have a time out before I loose it!!! I think our lovely children know exactly what button to press to send mummy (and daddy) round the bend. What doesn't help is when strangers chip in with useless information. I did have one woman in a shopping centre say to ds twin2 "Now, now, be a good boy for your mummy!"

Which I felt was the best thing to say as it shut him up - for a while at least!

off topic, but nutcracker's story reminded me of something that happened to us.

We were in a shop selling roller blades and skateboards. They had children's rollerblades on display and my 2 sons were touching them. Not in a way that could damage them but as there was a sign saying 'no touching' I was telling them to stop. The boys were also being generally lively and loud but not doing anything 'bad' - this wasn't an antique shop after all. There were a couple of other customers in the shop.

The male shop assistant said in a very loud, pronounced, sarcastic drawl 'some children just don't know how to behave'. Adopting the same voice, I replied 'and some shop assistants have no manners'. Petty, but it made me feel so good!