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Researching your family tree

174 replies

VoluptuaGoodshag · 14/09/2006 13:51

Anyone done this and what juice did you find out? Also, how do you go about finding out the more interesting stuff? I've done quite well at getting names, dates of birth, marriages and deaths but there is nothing to tell you what the person was actually like.

OP posts:
imaginaryfriend · 18/09/2006 22:07

I have joined genesreunited but didn't find anybody yet when I looked up the names I knew. So now I'd go there and follow up the James Thornhill possibility? Was James potentially a brother of Violet?

imaginaryfriend · 18/09/2006 22:09

flack, you should've seen her too! Totally Agatha Christie - she wore tweed twinsets and brogue shoes. She was thin as a little bird, ate virtually nothing, and drank a few glasses of her 'porter' (guinness) a day so my mum thinks she was pretty much permanently sozzled!

lemonaid · 18/09/2006 22:12

imaginaryfriend -- James is the name of Violet's father, according to the 1891 and 1901 censuses.

bubblerock · 18/09/2006 22:12

Do you want me to email them to you? Basically I found:

1891
75 Station Road, Sheffield

James Thornhill Head 35 Cashier at Ironworks
Wilhelmina Wife 32
William P Son 14 Auctioneers assistant
Ethel M Dau 12
Wilhelmina Dau 11
J Arnold Son 10
Violet I Dau 9
Edgar A Son 7
Margaret Dau 6
Doris M Dau 4
Elsie Dau 3
Phylis Dau 1
Muriel Peake Visitor 8
Lisa Maddison Servant 20

bubblerock · 18/09/2006 22:15

Lemonaid - I'm not going mad am I? They are not around pre 1891 are they??

lemonaid · 18/09/2006 22:19

Not under that name, certainly. Perhaps James and Wilhelmina didn't actually marry until somewhere between 1881 and 1891, so she and the older children are lurking somewhere under her maiden name while James is off boarding on his own?

Getting Violet's birth certificate -> Wilhemina's maiden name -> have a look around for Wilhelmina in 1881 and earlier would be a logical next step.

imaginaryfriend · 18/09/2006 22:19

Blimey, what a big family! I think it might make sense because I seem to remember vaguely that Violet's father got Harry a job in a Sheffield Steel works. That somewhat scuppers my mum's illegitimate daughter story though!

imaginaryfriend · 18/09/2006 22:27

I have to go, dd's coughing her little heart out. I'm going to try to follow your threads and suggestions and take it all up again in the morning. I've got so many things spinning round in my mind at the moment.

Thanks again. Can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

bubblerock · 18/09/2006 22:31

Okay, mine has a cough too - really chesty

Best thing to do is to get a big piece of paper (or back of wallpaper) and write it all on there with notes and the source - much easier to visualize it all that way.

As Lemonaid has said, send off for Violets birth certificate and get more details - here's the info -

Violet Isabel Thornhill
Apr/May/Jun 1882
Sheffield 9c (vol) 577 (pg)

throckenholt · 19/09/2006 08:30

gosh - this thread has moved on !

Just a comment about the links to ancestry.co.uk - you are not allowed to publish their stuff - you can transcribe the details as that is public property but I think the images are theirs, and you sign up for personal use only.

The 1881 census is transcribed on the familysearch site.

My username is the place I grew up by the way.

I am happy to help anyone who is doing family history (I have been doing mine for over 20 years !) - but I currently do not have a subscription to ancestry - which has all the census returns for England and Wales - so is a good place to go once you get back to 1901.

VoluptuaGoodshag · 19/09/2006 12:44

This is great - I'm so glad people have been able to tie up some loose ends, albeit rather sad ones. Perhaps we should have a topic all to ourselves

OP posts:
lemonaid · 19/09/2006 13:48

Have been able to get up those details of the James Thornhill I mentioned yesterday:

Registration District: Basford
Sub registration District: Ilkeston
Civil Parish: Ilkeston
Town or Village: Ilkeston
Urban Sanitary District: Ilkeston
Ecclesiastical Parish: St. Mary

5 Spring Garden Terr

John Summerfield, Head, Mar, 35 [Transcription says 33 but I'm positive it says 35], Horse [? Or possibly House] Keeper, born Northamptonsh. Brieworth [? That's what the transcription says, but could be Brixworth or Brinworth]

Louisa Do [i.e. Summerfield], Wife, Mar, 33, born Derbysh. Cotmanhay [? That's what the transcription says]

Florence M. Do [i.e. Summerfield], Daur, 9, Scholar, born Do [i.e. Derbyshire] Ilkeston

Harriet Do [i.e. Summerfield], Daur, 4, Do [i.e. Scholar], born Do. [i.e. Derbyshire] Ilkeston

Mary Do [i.e. Summerfield], Daur, 7 mths, born Do. [i.e. Derbyshire] Ilkeston

James Thornhill, Boarder, Unm, 24, Coal Miner, born Do. [i.e. Derbyshire] Shipley

John Risely, Lodger [Hmm... is there a difference between a Boarder and a Lodger? Interesting that different terms are used on two successive lines], Unm, 27, Railway Shunter (Pointsman), born Beds. Blessoe

lemonaid · 19/09/2006 13:49

From 1881 census, by the way.

imaginaryfriend · 19/09/2006 14:02

Wow. So Lemonaid, you think that James Thornhill is the father of Violet? I'm sure her family weren't connected with coal mining though. My mum's family were you see so I'd have thought she'd have known that. I'll double-check with her. Would this be the same James as the one bubblerock listed earlier in the thread?

Was there any mention of my dad's father, Harry's family?

And is this costing you money to help me out? I feel quite rubbish that I'm relying on you so much but you're so very good at it. Can I repay you for any expenses?

lemonaid · 19/09/2006 14:44

principle he, his wife Wilhelmina, and their three eldest children should all feature on the 1881 census as well (since they didn't all pop into existence fully-formed).

So given that in 1891 we have

James Thornhill Head 35 Cashier at Ironworks born Shipley, Derbyshire
Wilhelmina Wife 32
William P Son 14 Auctioneers assistant
Ethel M Dau 12
Wilhelmina Dau 11
J Arnold Son 10

in 1881 we should have

James Thornhill Head 25
Wilhelmina Wife 22
William P Son 4
Ethel M Dau 2
Wilhelmina Dau 1
J Arnold Son ? months

Perhaps not quite like that and perhaps not with those exact ages (since people could often be a bit vague), but there should be something

What we actually find is NO Wilhelmina Thornhill, and no William, Ethel or J Arnold of around the right age except for a few who are listed with parents that are very definitely not James or Wilhelmina.

And the only James Thornhill of the right age and place of birth is the one I listed in my earlier post.

I am absolutely not suggesting that he is the same James Thornhill who was listed as Violet's father in 1891. That's the sort of huge leap of logic that you need to be very careful to avoid. But it is one possibility that should be kept at the back of your mind.

For example, it's possible that James and Wilhelmina were not actually married at the time of the 1881 census, that the eldest few children initially took Wilhelmina's name (hence why none of them show up under "Thornhill" on the 1881 census) and were living with her while James worked away from home as a miner for a few years to raise money. Then that somewhere between 1881 and 1891 James had made enough money to marry Wilhelmina, the children all took on the name of Thornhill, and he settled into his far more respectable career as a cashier at the ironworks.

All that's possible, but it could just be a romantic fiction built up on a couple of shreds of evidence. It's just as possible, perhaps even more so, that the census enumerator was a bit deaf, or his handwriting very bad, so that they are all living happily together on the 1881 census but listed as Thornbush or Thorburn or Turnbull or something.

This is why your next step should be to get Violet's birth certificate. She was born in 1882, so only a year after the 1881 census. And she was registered with the surname Thornhill, so we can assume that her parents were married at that time.

From Violet's birth certificate, you will be able to find out (a) the address where she was born, so that you can go and check that out on the 1881 census and see if the family is living there (under whatever name) (b) Her mother's maiden name, so that you can look her up in the 1881 census under that name and see if there is anything.

This is roughly the conversation that bubblerock and I were having last night, but we were having it in shorthand rather than spelling out all the implications so it was probably a bit difficult to follow...

lemonaid · 19/09/2006 14:44

Darn -- first paragraph of that post should read

imaginaryfriend -- the thing is, as per bubblerock's earlier transcription from 1891 a James Thornhill is listed as Violet's father. In principle he, his wife Wilhelmina, and their three eldest children should all feature on the 1881 census as well (since they didn't all pop into existence fully-formed).

Hallgerda · 19/09/2006 14:48

I've found quite a few gaps in the census information, and quite a few cases in which half the family was staying with a friend somewhere. Have you looked for all variants of Wilhelmina/Williamina/Willa/Mina?

lemonaid · 19/09/2006 14:53

I wouldn't swear that it's been exhaustive, but I tried a lot of spelling variations. Feel free to check yourself .

In my own family tree I have Linehan as a surname, and you would not believe how many different ways I've found that spelled on census returns (where I've managed to find them at all -- at least one census enumerator presumably mangled their name beyond the limits of even my twisted imagination).

bubblerock · 19/09/2006 15:07

OMG - the whole blimmin tree is on ancestry already!!! How jammy is that? So Imaginaryfriend, there may well be some relatives of yours out there - why else would they be doing your tree??

I will put what info they have on my next post!

lemonaid · 19/09/2006 15:19

Oh poo -- kept meaning to check that when I was on Ancestry but (obviously) kept forgetting.

bubblerock · 19/09/2006 15:30

Right, It's HUGE!! Can you see trees without membership? If not, I would definately recommend the free 14 day trial and print off the whole thing and also contact the people doing the tree to see how you are related - it does head off to Australia too so maybe you'll get a cheap holiday out of it!!
I transcribed a bit, but it really is big and very thorough -

Parents of William Thornhill 1820
Samuel Thornaly 26/6/1791 Shipley
Elizabeth Johnson 16/12/1791 Ilkeston

Parents Of James Thornhill 1855
William Thornhill 1820 Shipley (died 5/12/1886) Coal miner
Sarah Rice 1823

James Thornhill 16/9/1855 Shipley (died 5/1/1928)
MARRIED
Wilhelmina Edge 1859 Sunderland (died 19/5/1927)

Children of James/Wilhelmina
Wilhelmina Thornhill Sept 1879 Sheffield
MARRIED 1907 Sheffield
Rev RF Burrow (Spouse)
No descendents named

Ethel May Thornhill Sept 1878 Sheffield
MARRIED jun1905 sheffield
John Ostick Hallifield
No descendents named

James Arnold Thornhill Mar 1881 Darnall (died 26/7/1941 sydney NSW)
MARRIED 2/11/1902 Wicker Sheffield
Ellen Arnold
Descendents-
Esther Thornhill 26/5/1903 (has descendents)
Janet Thornhill sept/1905 (has descendents)
James Arnold Thornhill Jun/1907

William Price Thornhill Mar 1881 (died 1945)
MARRIED Sep 1902 Sheffield
Carolyn Rosalie Fretwell 1876 Sheffield
Descendents
Dorothy May Thornhill 1903 Rotherham
Mollie Gautier Thornhill 1905 Sheffield (has descendents)
John Francis Edwin Thornhill 1914 Paddington NSW (has descendents)

bubblerock · 19/09/2006 15:33

here's a link to the free trial.

bubblerock · 19/09/2006 18:37

Bump incase you missed it

mummyhill · 19/09/2006 20:37

Bubble - just sent you a rather lengthy email I hope it makes sense!!

I am going to go up to my mothers on thursday night and see how far she has gone with the informatio she has or if she has hit the same wall as me. We both started at diffrent time and she has stoped as she doesn't have time to sit and do the research. I have the time but not the funds will have to see if we can come to an agreement.

imaginaryfriend · 19/09/2006 22:41

Thanks bubblerock. I'm feeling a bit lost with all that information in terms of who's who and where Violet fitted into it all. I'll definitely try to find the people who've made the family tree so far. How incredible to think that we may be (even vaguely) related! So I go to ancestry.com to contact them? And if I were to start on my dad's dad where do you think is the best point?

And you've never said how you got to be so knowledgeable about all this?

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