MNHQ transphobia guidelines part 2

[QueenStromba]

First thread here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2120841-MNHQ-are-going-to-decide-what-constitutes-transphobia-on-MN-What-advice-guidelines-would-you-give-them?

Sitestuff thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2117350-MNHQ-now-email-posters-with-how-to-get-around-the-talk-guidelines?

The thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2107862-Following-on-from-the-TERF-thread?

I never thought anything of the GRA because at the time, such a huge amount of equality legislation was ushered in that there wasn't really time to think a lot about it all. In retrospect, there are a lot of problems with equality legislation in general, but at the time I think people were grateful for anything.

I also think that at the time the whole gender queer etc hadn't really happened. Trans meant to most people those who have SRS. I only knew two trans women and they were both completely ordinary people who had SRS, one very young, one older with no claim to anything other than wanting to get on with their own lives. They were not part of some kind of mythical 'trans community' with some kind of ideology about women. And that was who the GRC was meant to give much needed help to; all the stuff happening now around trans activism seems to be totally changing the idea of who trans people are and what they want.

So you don't actually believe anything gender-critical women have said here, kim?

(And I see you are still banging the "there are just a few extremists you keep on making an unwarranted fuss about" drum. Give it a rest, already.)

CrotchMaven Wed 02-Jul-14 23:08:21
Thanks, Beach.

I do entirely agree with you about the effect of the GRA on transpolitics. I think the law came before the debate and so offered an illusion that whatever you feel is whatever you are, even if it meant throwing a vast tranche of the people (women) under a bus. I still don't entirely understand why the debate didn't really happen society-wide back then. I know I was an avid newspaper reader (was only really dipping my toe on-line) and, even in my naive feminist state, I would have thought this would have caught my eye. I wonder why it didn't.

Painfully, the debate is happening now.

I hope it is OK to quote entire posts. I do it partly when I agree but also to highlight something that is important and (IMO) shouldn't be lost due to speed of thread/nature of forum discussions (loads of people speaking at the same time).

As you say, CrotchMaven, the debate is happening now, when it is probably too late. And it is only happening in places where women are being allowed to explore their disconcertion over an issue which concerns us to a degree that very few issues ever have or will have.

This sounds dramatic but I think this is a watershed moment in sexual politics and women's rights. Blink, though, and you could miss it.

(Thank you to everyone who has said nice things about my participation here. I owe so much to feminists who have gone before me. Some public figures, some not. Some of them ex or current MNers such as dittany, proles, SaF, Aye, Basil and many others.)

kim, I know you thought you'd found the answer to your problems by becoming a straight woman. And I acknowledge that it must be massively painful for you to read that there are some who think that your answer isn't any answer at all. I don't know how to square that circle, though. I wish I did. Please know, though, that there is not one person on any of these threads that wishes you harm. As was said earlier, if I knew that parents at a school that my kids attended were discriminating against you, I would be right at the front to support you. If you are a good teacher, you are a good teacher. These threads aren't about that, but I am not sure you are able to see that.

I will stop saying that you are making it all about you when you stop making it all about you. Deal?

"I just think that some of the posts and threads on FWR can create an impression of transwomen that does not reflect the reality and that can fuel prejudice. "

I believe that all the posters here who are passionately and thoughtfully opposing the more unreasonable demands of transactivism fall into a completely different part of the Venn diagram from any people who are prone to discriminate against or disrespect trans people in real life.

I am not saying that people are not horrible to trans people in real life. I am sure some are, and I am sorry about that.

but they are not the people on this thread, and that is not linked.

As others have said. I would support your right to hold your job, and fight tooth and nail for it, Kim. Honestly. i have suffered for doing similar.

that has nothing to do with the points being argued here.

Kim
talking about extremists... fuels anger towards those trans people who aren't like that. Just like discussions on any group where extreme examples are talked about.

Should we therefore pack it in over at FWR? Does talking about MRA people and others who identify as men who seek to oppress women just fuel hatred towards men?

We talk about extremists at FWR -- rapists, rape apologists, misogynists in general, and all others who hurt women and seek to oppress us.

I think we are grown up enough to distinguish between rapists and misogynists and oppressors and men who do not rape and who are not misogynists and who do not seek to oppress us. It would be nice to see more of them actively speaking out against those among them who hate women, but heyho.

In other words, feminists don't hate men just because they hate what extremist men say and do.

And furthermore, feminists who challenge the transactivism that seeks to eliminate women's definitions of what women are or eliminate women as a class the better to serve their narrow, selfish ends do not in doing so hate transpeople in general or challenge the right of trans people to be transpeople (whoever and wherever they are -- it's hard to know if they are there at all because they are very silent and leave the floor to the shrill transactivists that tend to be discussed on FWR).

And I feel like you have repeatedly tried to silence others, kim, with your recent strawman list being the latest example. (But to be frank I don't see your many, multiple posts as evidence that you have, in fact, been silenced.)

Kim, when you say most dress like everyone else I don't know what you mean. The two trans women I know dress like themselves. I dress like myself. We don't all dress like each other. There isn't a female uniform.

Whenever I hear phrases like dress as a woman or live as a woman I always want to ask - which one? It's so belittling.

I lurked on the first thread for a while as I am part of the FWR faithful Kim complains about and Kim wanted to canvas other views in Chat. Here you are again misrepresenting the discussions on FWR to gain sympathy for how those nasty feminists treat you and how you valiantly soldier on to defend the transwomen who won't speak for themselves. Poor, poor Kim.

Buffy, I hate you for making me realise I've now got to learn all about epistemology The Wikipedia page is one of those that helpfully gives loads of leads to follow, so it's gonna be a big job.

Then I'll have to translate it all down again into ornery language, so I can add it into my thinking without needing hundreds of other Greek-derived words that currently aren't in vocabulary! ... Unless you feel like translating it down? Maybe when you're not so tired?

Beach, I disagree with what you said about post-modernism (as I understood you.) I've always thought it's surprisingly easy for women, in particular, to grasp because our lives are full of deconstruction, reconstruction, adding and removing layers and suchlike. Mind you I'm not versed in formal philosophy (see above) and have been known to go slightly post-apocalyptic in the presence of male philosophers, who insist on using a lot of Greek-derived words to organise a theory of fluidity into tightly closed channels.

^^ ramble apology v.15

Kim147 "But now I feel like I've been silenced."

Now you know how we feel. I've felt silenced by you many times.

math, that's an interesting point, and one about which I have often wondered. The ones whose comments/behaviours generate lots of the posts on FWR (say) are those such as misogynists, transactivists, anti-feminists etc. But the ones who get the vitriol from non-feminists (broad brush because I am trying to go to bed!), are feminists. I'm not that interested in "not all trans are like that" or "not all men are like that" if I am not seeing plenty of active pushback against those who are being aresholes in the first place, rather than against those who are commenting on their arseholeishness. Don't moan at me for pointing stuff out about a group with which you partly identify. Moan at them. Leave me out of it. I've got enough on my plate.

I do understand what I think is Kim's point - if all the discourse on MN focuses on negative issues, if the only debate about the issues around nomenclature constantly reference the worst examples of behaviour by people who happen to be in her 'group' then I can understand why those threads can be upsetting. As I've said, I know two trans women (well, I encounter on a regular basis in real life) and they are both lovely people, gentle, non Shouty, possibly quietly determined because both have decent people facing careers, they don't get to hide away in an office they are out there dealing with people day in day out in their jobs - and as I said, they are lovely. I feel privileged to know DS's teacher who is trans. I can see that for ordinary non activist trans people, who probably constitute the majority, if the only time non trans people read or hear about trans people is when they are reading about bad things that have been said or done, that's not going to do anything but increase unease, misunderstanding, distrust...it's desperately sad.

I'm not sure how we can change this though. From what I can see, Kim is ploughing a fairly lone furrow here and it must be quite difficult.

Sorry if that's all a bit muddled.

Transwomen aren't to be trusted.

In what sense? With your purse? to meet you on time? who said that?

Transwomen want to attack women in changing room - look here's an example so it must be true.

Well there are examples. So they are true.

Transwomen demand this.
what this?

Transwomen demand that.
what that?

Transwomen want to control women.
well they kinda do as they want to control what a whole class is and says so they can be in it

Transwomen are just men really. Blokes in dresses. Looking like 50s housewives.

ok a few people did say things about a 50s look but I guess they saw it if they said it. My relative is more channeling an 80s thing, I think, but then I guess the80s took a lot from the 50s, so, unless you want to get into a fashion workshop with visuals, I am not sure where this is going to take us

Transwomen are full of male entitlement and privilege.

yeah well I would just talk about the entitlement rather than styling it male, but you know, if the cap fits

Transwomen hate women.

really? someone said that? show me.
I know I have seen something about " a misogynistic position" but you know what, society is misogynist, there is a lot internalised misogyny about. I don't see that calling that out is the same as saying that certain people actively and consciously hate women. but - show me

Look - here's a rare example of something someone said. So that must be what transwomen are like.

if it was said it was said. no one says it speaks for the class of the speaker but it has the power to affect us spoken about (for whatever reason, go figure, I know, right?) so it has to be addressed.

If the guy in the block of flats opposite came round and threatened me, I would be mad to tell my friend "but it's ok, because there are about 40 flats there, and the people in the other 39 seem to be totally fine."

Transwomen are just delusional.
example?

Transwomen are mentally unstable and want to mutilate themselves.
two things conflated

"I've always thought it's surprisingly easy for women, in particular, to grasp because our lives are full of deconstruction, reconstruction, adding and removing layers and suchlike. "

Garlic - I agree
I think it is really interesting how women instinctively understand thin and thick stories, etc, for instance

how you can frame "loyalty" so differently