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Poverty line

30 replies

lionheart · 30/07/2006 21:25

I read a statistic today that said one in every four children in Britain lives below the poverty line.
Can somebody please tell me how this is defined?

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expatinscotland · 30/07/2006 21:26

£10,000/pa to live on, IIRC.

lionheart · 30/07/2006 21:29

Does that statistic make sense then, do you think?

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thewomanwhothoughtshewasahat · 30/07/2006 21:29

no it's a relative measure - here

Toothache · 30/07/2006 21:30

What if your live on 10k quite happily though?

hairymclary · 30/07/2006 21:31

I believe that it also takes other things into consideration. ie there is a list of things that if you don't have them you are considered to live in poverty (I did an acces course last year and this was covered). It included things like having a television and a washing machine

lionheart · 30/07/2006 21:45

Thank you expatinscotland and thewomanwhothoughtshewasahat, that's useful.

So, at the moment it's arounf 10k after housing costs are paid, is that right? Do housing costs include gas, electricity, water?

Good point, Toothache.

I'm not sure what I'd consider to be a necessity.

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expatinscotland · 30/07/2006 21:51

No, it's deffo NOT £10K to live on after bills, IIRC!

lionheart · 30/07/2006 21:53

Just after housing costs then?

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lionheart · 30/07/2006 21:56

... after rent, I mean ('cos you'd be hard pushed to have a mortgage on that income, wouldn't you?)

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MrsSpoon · 30/07/2006 22:03

Heard something on the local radio a few weeks ago about areas locally that have high levels of child poverty (Craigmillar in Edinburgh and Ballingry in Fife) and a scheme to input more money into these areas to combat the poverty levels.

I had a query about this, I didn't realise this was supposed to be possible in this country with benefits etc, thought everyone was supposed to have an acceptable level of income, albeit low if nobody in the house is working.

Made me wonder if the child poverty is due to the money coming in being spent in other ways (alcohol, drugs, gambling) rather than on the children, in which case how will injecting more cash help?

expatinscotland · 30/07/2006 22:16

MrsSpoon
Housing poverty is sadly very common in areas where house prices are high.

In areas like Craigmillar or Niddrie you'll find thousands of people, both on benefits and not, who are literally stuck in terribly substandard and/or overcrowded housing.

They cannot move out b/c they are unable to save a deposit/first months' rent for something private, waiting lists are enormous (in Edinburgh, council and housing association properties are combined into one list, EdIndex), postcode discrimination, unable to access credit, etc.

So they have no choice but to live in places full of damp, lead paint, no heat, etc.

Then there's fuel poverty as well.

expatinscotland · 30/07/2006 22:18

Last week's Edinburgh Evening News featured the story of a man with severe learning disabilities and brain damage who suffered a fall which rendered him wheelchair bound. He was unable to return to his 2nd floor council flat. His sister offered to become his carer, as the wait list for nursing care is over a year long.

She, however, has two kids and lives in a 1st floor flat.

This man has been in hospital since November of last year, fully recovered from his injury, b/c the council is unable to find a suitable three-bedroom home for him and his carer.

MrsSpoon · 30/07/2006 22:32

Just find it very sad to think that we are led to believe that on the whole people are taken care of in this country. I have friends who have had to rely on the state for housing and benefits and, although certainly not financially rich, seem to manage OK. Looks like it could be a bit of a lottery depending on which area of the country you live.

lionheart · 31/07/2006 10:43

Do you think the newspaper story will get him what he needs Expat? That's so shoddy.

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wannaBe1974 · 31/07/2006 11:00

having grown up in Africa I am very scinical about what is referred to as "poverty" in this country. I do believe that there are some who simply cannot afford to have a good standard of living, however I do not believe for one second that one in 4 children in this country live in poverty.

Imo poverty is not having a roof over your head, not being able to afford to eat, not knowing whether your children will live or die because you can't afford to take them to the hospital.

Always amazes me that when you see so called "poor" families on tv they always seem to be puffing away on their cigarettes. I agree that some families do their best, but I also think that a huge amount need to get their priorities straight.

At least we have a benefits system in this country, that's more than can be said for other countries.

expatinscotland · 31/07/2006 11:02

'At least we have a benefits system in this country, that's more than can be said for other countries. '

Well, that is a point as well, wannabe.

We lived in a really, really rundown area.

I found it depressing. So DH and I worked 4 jobs to save up a deposit.

Caligula · 31/07/2006 11:05

Oh I hate this argument that if you're not actually living on the street and you buy fags, you're not poor.

Poverty is about not being able to function reasonably in the society in which you find yourself. How other societies function is irrelevant, it's about your relationship to your society. It is about social exclusion, not necessarily starvation. IMO anyway.

quootiepie · 31/07/2006 11:33

i remember a news story about some children who grew up in a room with like 1 broken bed and a mattress in their own excrement while their parents watched SKY tv downstairs. The room was totally bare... it was disgusting. yes, maybe 1 in 4 children grow up below poverty line, while their parents are puffing away, watching tv. Tesco ALWAYS has jobs... people just dont have excuses. I know some people try their best, but some are so selfish. I dont care if anyone has a go at me...

mazzystar · 31/07/2006 11:42

link{http://england.shelter.org.uk/howtohelp/index.cfm\shelter} are running a big campaign related to this now.

mazzystar · 31/07/2006 11:43

ahem

Tortington · 31/07/2006 12:09

How do the UK public see poverty?
People living in poverty the world over often feel their voice is not heard and their dignity is not respected. The public in the UK has tended to be more judgmental about those living in poverty than people in many other countries ? being more likely to say, for example, that poverty is due to ?laziness and lack of will-power?, rather than to ?injustice in our society?.15

from the oxfam website thewomanwhothoughtshewasahat linked below.

thought it was interesting.

sometimes a person can be worse off going for a part time job at tesco. when supporting a family. this isn't beuase benefits are so bloody well paid its becuase of the way the system is structured.

often you will work out you are even - so why bother going out to work? or that you would get maybe an extra tenner or lose a tenner.

its hard for people who ar on the bbones of their arses to look forward into the long term future - becuase all their financial planning is day to day.

those of us who can actually afford to wrok at tesco ( for example) may enjoy things such as long term friendships, social workplace learning, self esteem, confidence, feeling happier, self worth, pride in a job well done, ambition, drive, a future, goals, a pension, promotion, kick start to further education, in house training in things like assertiveness or customer care, first aid, health and safety - all free

few of which are financially beneficial or taken into account - however these factors do play out becuase moving from a job to a job is far easier than moving from unemployment to a job.

also i think it pertinant to remember that often the poorest people in society get screwed twice as much as those who are not.

utilities for example. you can't pay your gas bill - but needed the gas to keep your children warm.

they fit you a meter, charge you 25% more for use - then standing charge for the meter itself. this price goes up when you use the " emergency" button - which gives you an extra £2 ( which you have previously paid for) whilst you figure out how your going to get another fiver to keep the gas on.

this also goes for the electricity. you are less likley to be able to pass a credit check for a bank account to be opened. if indeed you were lucky enough to have one from being a child - the bank manager will tell you you are not afforded the same rights and privelages as other current account holders - infact you can deposit and withdraw money, but sometimes you cannot set up DDs ( which help you keep a better hold on finances) you cannot have a debit card - or you get "an electron" card - which is like say "look everyone i am a poor person with no bank provaliges becuase i can pay stuff sometimes" no cheque book.

often with no car - or an old car that costs more in the long run - you uselocal shopping failities - usually such places as the co-op - the fruit and veg and every thing else is much much overpriced for ethical reasons - something which you and i can chose - shall we shop there and save the planet or shall be save £30 and go tesco?

poorer people dont have that option so spend more on food.

not even got onto household insurances - which you dont get becuase you dont have the money - or your seriously overcharged becuase of where you live

oh not got onto the door to door lenders who offer you stuff at ....wait for it.....125%

well would you? or are yours the only kids to get fuck all this xmas?

coppertop · 31/07/2006 12:51

Well said, Custy.

Thre's also been research showing that families with a disabled child are x times more likely to be living in poverty. Suitable childcare is so rare that it's virtually non-existent. Employers also tend not to be too happy about time off for all the appointments that disabled children have.

Dh goes out to work but I can't. 2 yeas ago we reached the point where we had literally £10 a month left after bills had been paid. Our washing machine died and the only way we could get a new one was from a charity for families of disabled children. We have no car and never go on holiday. Both of us have a degree but our options are severely limited. We don't smoke or go out drinking either.

This isn't meant as one of those 'woe is me' stories but hopefully an illustration of how not everyone who is poor sits around smoking/drinking or is poor because they can't be bothered to get off their lazy arse.

Thanfully we're in a better position now but it's not an experience I will forget in a hurry.

thewomanwhothoughtshewasahat · 31/07/2006 21:56

round of applause custy - excellent post. poverty will always be context specific. just because "really" poor people used to live 10 to a room with no bathroom, or still do in parts of the developing world doesn't mean that you can't be experiencing poverty just because you;ve got a bathroom.

soapbox · 31/07/2006 22:03

WOW! Great post Custy!

fistfullofnappies · 31/07/2006 22:50

we've been under the poverty line too. Salary into the bank, straight out again for bills.

Go to the coop with a pound in your pocket to buy something to make dinner with (no Im not kidding)

cant afford juice, breakfast cereal or other luxuries.

no car, no washing machine, no dishwasher, no video/dvd, no computer, no vacuum cleaner, no microwave.

2 work outfits (pre-marriage), 1 jeans, 1 shoes, assorted old T shirts, no new clothes ever, clothes from charity shops too expensive.

we were supporting a family on a single, graduate salary. we'd have been better off on the dole, we were losing money.