Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Other subjects

Flip

1 2

Original poster

academics and editors PLEASE help!

36 replies

thewomanwhothoughtshewasahat · 04/07/2006 17:17

can someone help me with citations? virtually everything I read uses ibid for consecutive references to the same source, and Smith op. cit. for non-consecutive ones. I'm using EndNote which very nicely inserts my references for me, and will format them according to whichever I choose of 1000-plus styles. But the recommended ones for footnotes (have to use footnotes not in-text citations) do not use op. cit. I have tried MLA, Chicago and Harvard but am not getting any op cits. Short of applying 1000-plus styles and seeing which one uses op. cit. I don't know what to do. So here I am - does anyone know the name of the style that uses op cit? does anyone know how to get Endnote to use op cit? I really want to use op cit as I'm writing something with a maximum word count and footnotes are included. If you're still with me many many thanks. If you can answer my question even more thanks and a sizeable chunk of respect too

OP posts:

Fauve · 04/07/2006 17:49

Blimey, hat, that's a bit esoteric

CarolinaMoose · 04/07/2006 17:51

isn't it? Much easier when you're asking us about swimsuits...

kalex · 04/07/2006 17:53

Wow!! you use really big words
sorry no answer but bump for the boffins!

Original poster

thewomanwhothoughtshewasahat · 04/07/2006 17:55

I know, but after several fruitless exchanges with some librarian character with more fringe than body fat I'm desperate. The power of mn may yet serve me well

OP posts:

Fauve · 04/07/2006 17:58

I bet you anything that someone will rise to the challenge.

spacedonkey · 04/07/2006 18:02

Does endnote offer Oxford as a style option? I believe that uses op. cit.

hunkermunker · 04/07/2006 18:02

Oxford?

Original poster

thewomanwhothoughtshewasahat · 04/07/2006 18:20

no Oxford! more than a blummen 1000 and Oxford not listed. grrr

OP posts:

roisin · 04/07/2006 18:26

If not Oxford, does it have OUP, or Fowler's?

hunkermunker · 04/07/2006 18:35

Bugger (and dammit, SD, beating me to it!).

spacedonkey · 04/07/2006 18:38

lol hunker

I don't know much about how endnote works tbh so I can't help

Can you adapt the output styles at all? If you used the basic numbered/footnote style, does it put the full name in in place of op cit?

Snafu · 04/07/2006 18:41

Do they have APA? I think that uses op cit?

Snafu · 04/07/2006 18:42

Sorry, op. cit.

edam · 04/07/2006 18:45

Sorry, don't know much about endnote, whenever I've edited something that requires ibid and op. cit. I've just written them as footnotes in word. Presumably this is too big a document to just do that?

beckybrastraps · 04/07/2006 19:05

API?

MrsBadger · 04/07/2006 19:11

I use EndNote but only in-text citations - will ask around at work tomorrow if not solved by then.

CorrieDale · 04/07/2006 21:04

Dh, who is an academic, says "if you have to use footnotes, don't use endnote. just do it in Word". He says that Endnote doesn't work but that the students all want it for some reason. He's written a lot of papers and types them up himself (crap handwriting, doesn't like dictating)so i suspect he might know what he's talking about.

BecsKatie · 04/07/2006 21:57

God I used to train on this (worked for Researchsoft) but cannot remember what to do/which one you need - have you tried phoning their current technical help?? It is in Berkeley so time wise they are open at the minute?
Sorry cannot help more (I always preferred Reference Manager!!)

monkeytrousers · 04/07/2006 22:03

I've just written my dissertation in word and did this.

Can I hijack for a mo and ask Fauve a question?

Blackduck · 04/07/2006 22:06

did phd and did all footnotes self - ie ibid etc.. didn;t use any software to do it...think if its academic you will have to stick to the 'rules' ??

Ellbell · 05/07/2006 01:02

I don't use Endnote myself, sorry. I'd definitely use Word for the footnotes.

However, I'd ask why you want to use 'ibid' and 'op cit'. The style sheets I am familiar with discourage the use of ibid, op. cit. etc, because they can be misleading. In fact, 'ibid.' should really only be used if the reference is to exactly the same place in the same book as the previous reference (so it doesn't make sense to say 'ibid., p. 3' following on from a reference to page 2 of the same book, iyswim). And 'op. cit.' only works if you are not referring to more than one book by the same author (otherwise you don't know which op. which you have previously cit. you are referring to...!).

So... My advice would be:

First reference in the notes to any given text

give a full reference: L. Bell, Really Dull Book on Dante (Place: Publisher, Date), p.???

Subsequent references

if you are only referring to one text by that author, you can just repeat the author's surname and the page reference: Bell, p.???
if you are referring to more than one text by the same author, give an abbreviated version of the title as well as the surname: Bell, Dull, p???

That's the solution adopted by the journal I edit, anyway, and it's completely free of any possibility of misunderstanding.

HTH, but feel free to ignore if you are very attached to ibid and op. cit.

Ellbell · 05/07/2006 01:03

Just read this through, and I bore even myself sometimes

Original poster

thewomanwhothoughtshewasahat · 05/07/2006 10:31

I'm quite delighted by the number of responses here! tbh I wasn't sure if I'd get any. thanks everyone. CorrieDale - I do sometimes wonder about the value of using endnote but on balance, for the way I work I think it's worth it - the main advantage is that if you cut and paste and change the order (which I do all the time) it automatically rejigs all your references (shortening repeated ones along the lines suggested by Ellbell even if it won't use op cit) It also automatically writes your bibliography, and both refs and bibliography are perfectly formatted. And so far it's working really well - this op cit problem is the only one I've come across. Also, I do have to use footnotes, I understand they're falling out of favour a bit, but ever conservative the law department where I am insists on them. One way round it is to edit a style like space donkey suggests but for long and boring reasons I can't bear to go into that's not working either. Ellbell - basically I agree that op. cit. is not particularly helpful and I do prefer your approach. My only reason for wanting to use op cit is not to waste precious words on repeating long titles. I have a feeling I might be able to adapt it to use short titles, which would be a compromise. I'll go and have a play now. Damn I love mn. every time I have a problem I know that I have this vast resource of clever, well-informed people to call on

OP posts:

Original poster

thewomanwhothoughtshewasahat · 05/07/2006 10:42

ok. some success with your approach ellbell. If I enter a short title this is what happens

first ref:

Eyal Benvenisti, "Water Conflicts During the Occupation of Iraq," American Journal of International Law 97 (2004).

second ref:

Benvenisti, "Water Conflicts."

what do you think? personally I'm not sure I like the quotation marks and the full stop but apart from picky personal preferences I guess it ticks my boxes - keeps the word count down; easily understandable (more so than op. cit.); and Endnote does it all for me. Think I might have to live with it like this. At this rate I'm going to spend more time formatting the blummin thing than writing it...

OP posts:

MrsBadger · 05/07/2006 10:59

hat, that sounds like a good compromise and is definitely clear to readers (though I'm with you on the quote marks)

Flip

1 2

Swipe left for the next trending thread