Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Other subjects

What is the matter with these men? (Not funny)

180 replies

Janh · 04/02/2004 13:22

Another one who killed most of the family and then jumped off a bridge - left the baby in the car this time

BBC

OP posts:
Bunglie · 06/02/2004 15:48

I have only just caught up on this thread - after I had tried to sort out who was saying, agreeing and what was what I decided that it all boiled down to one point.
A woman would rather give up contact with her child and know that it is being cared for and loved. She will always lay her own life down for that of her children.
A man acts before he thinks, (in most cases not all!) He tends to put his own feelings before those of his children and this sadly as we have seen leads to violence and often murder.
I think it is because we are made differently, does a man have anything like maternal instincts or just paternal instincts?
Now that I have made a fool of myself giving you my opinion I shall crawl back into my little shell that protects me from the insanity of the male dominated world.
P.S. My dh has just read this and agrees!! he said a man is too self absorbed and sees himself as the dominant force, the bread winner and hunter. He admitted he would like to be in a position to lay down his life for his children but he doubts that he could! Hmm! food for thought, but I think it is the longest discussion we have had all day Thank you mumsnet!!

lilibet · 06/02/2004 15:49

I wondered how long it would be

Fizog · 06/02/2004 15:50

Sorry dino - didn't mean to sound rude. Am about to update diary now after last night

Twinkie · 06/02/2004 15:51

Actually stressyhead I feel physically sick that I have been conversing with this person - thought he had been banned or something - I thought there would be some way of stopping him posting things like this and slandering and slagging off other mumsnetters by email.

Thats it I'm finished on this thread and anything else he posts on - he says one thing and is not even clever enough to say it eloquently and not tie himself up in knots as well as being rude and sexist.

I feel quite sad now.

Coddy · 06/02/2004 16:39

No wonder Nicksie was such a pain in t he arse to me yesterday!

Quackers · 06/02/2004 16:52

If this 'man' loved his daughters and his motive for doing this was to let them be with him, he wouldn't have subjected them to such an apparantly brutal death, where they obviously would have suffered greatly. A Father with real mental distortion but love for his children would do it with the least 'awareness' as possible for them. This is just an act of pure selfish anger and it's appauling.
You know the worst thing, if he were alive he would be let off by declaring he was mentally unstable and unable to take take responsibility for his actions. Whatever your mental state, you should be accountable for your actions. It disgusts me totally that he can get away with killing himself and yet taking away those precious children. They rest in a safer place.

musica · 06/02/2004 17:13

I wonder why they can't just kill themselves. Leave the rest of the family alone!

tigermoth · 06/02/2004 20:36

well said musica, though I don't usually like to be to uncharitable. I often agree with you Tom. I certainly don't think you are excusing these men, but no, I can't link the pain of separation from children with the murder of them.

I see that dadslib is back. I am sorry that this upsets you twinkie - I don't know what to suggest. I have been wondering what has happened to Simon howard and Stuartc also. Haven't they also been quiet in the last few non-dadslib weeks or have I missed something?

aloha · 06/02/2004 20:50

musica, the reason they don't just kill themselves is because that wouldn't hurt their ex partners. This is revenge and hate, simple as that. They are violent men who hate the fact that their partners have left. Killing themselves wouldn't hurt their partners. Slaughtering their children in front of them and then killing them does. That's why they do it. NOTHING to do with not seeing their children. That's a total red herring.

aloha · 06/02/2004 20:52

Oh, and the reason it bothers Twinkie is because he suggested she'd made it all up about her husband being violent to her. I don't think that a man who hits his wife and believes other victims of domestic violence are liars is really in a position to post on this thread. Sorry not to play the game and all that, but it revolts me. It really does.

tigermoth · 06/02/2004 21:19

I think musica's comment was a bit off the cuff, aloha - that's how I took it anyway.

tigermoth · 06/02/2004 21:24

I'm ever so confused about dadslib - I thought he was banned. I read his apology to twinkie but I have no idea what happenend after the apology. I heard he went to a meetup, then, well, I lost track. I'm not trying to belittle the situation - I genuinely don't know what's going on!

MeanBean · 06/02/2004 21:26

I have to agree with Aloha, these men kill themselves for the same reason as other murderers like Harold Shipman and Fred West - as a final act of control, not one of despair. Killing themselves, though desirable, would not wreak the havoc their out of control egos crave. What makes me really angry about all this, is that the family courts, social services etc, treat women who express anxiety about these men (and I use that term in its generic sense in this thread, ie, the lunatics who kill their kids) having unsupervised contact with their children, as hysterical, bitter man-haters, who just haven't managed to "move on" yet. It seems that until a man actually goes ahead and murders someone, no amount of violence that he has perpetrated in the past can be taken into account in deciding the future interests of his child(ren). And yet mothers it seems, are thrown into prison at the drop of a hat - you don't even have to prove a crime has been committed, let alone that a mother is the person who committed it. Ee, that's a strange result from forty years of feminism...

aloha · 06/02/2004 21:36

I'm not attacking Musica at all. I agree with her totally - these men are no loss at all and it's a shame they don't just top themselves. I was genuinely trying to explain their motivation. ie hate and revenge, not despair. If they just topped themselves I'd agree with Tom. But they don't.

ks · 06/02/2004 21:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Janh · 06/02/2004 21:53

tigermoth, "dadslib" was banned, not sure if by mumsnet or at his own suggestion, by that name and with his previous email address. He was always free to get a new address and ID and come back. He lurked anyway after his disappearance (but not for long).

Apparently he only has internet access at work so is only here from 9-5 ish.

OP posts:
Janh · 06/02/2004 21:55

ks, nobody did until today really. One or two people were suspicious, did a search on Nicksie's posts and put 2 and 2 together.

OP posts:
Tom · 06/02/2004 21:58

I am VERY cross about the misrepresentation of my views here. I wonder how many actually bothered to read what I said. I feel I've been slandered, and effectively accused publically of excusing murder! Extraordinary.

Let's read what has been said about me:

" but I do think jumping on the 'Families need Fathers' bandwagon here is a bit lame "
"Just because their relationship has broken down does not give ANYONE, whatever their gender, the right to take another persons life" (WHO SAID ANYTHING LIKE THAT????!)
"And I will never agree with Tom or even with the suggestion that this could be a contributing factor " (WHY is it that it happens SO often at the point when an abused woman leaves home/breaks up the relationship?????)
"Nicksie, the issue is Tom was wrong. These cases have been widely studied and the men are NOT loving caring men with no previous history of violence who are driven insane by being separated from their children" - WHERE THE HELL DID I SAY THEY WERE LOVING CARING MEN ETC????????

Let's have a look at what I DID say:
"I think that men who are seriously unhinged, violent, abusive etc etc, and perhaps have ideas about men controlling women, can be tipped into this kind of behaviour by feelings of loss of control - the only control left them is over life/death. "

So, let's all read together... I'm saying that these things are being done by men who are "SERIOUSLY UNHINGED", "VIOLENT", "ABUSIVE", "CONTROLLING" etc, and that LOSS OF CONTROL can be a 'tipping' factor that can tip these psychos over the edge.

What I am hypothesising is that men of this kind - i.e. (let me repeat for the dull among you) VIOLENT, ABUSIVE, CONTROLLING, MENTALLY UNHINGED MEN, can pose a risk to their families at the point of separation - it is a potential tipping point, as there is a loss of what they depend on in their abuse - i.e. control/power.

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THAT ANALYSIS???? It would lead me to suggest that services need to be trained to pick up on these potential killers - we need an analysis of risk factors etc - and ensure that there is adequate safety for their families, through provision of safe refuges etc (AS I BLOODY SAID). IE - IF my hypothesis is right, that famiy breakdown can be a tipping point, then the services that engage with families around the point of separation need to be resourced and trained to spot this kind of risk. It has happened too many times.

It also implies that the current divorce process is not adequately dealing with cases where there are accusations of domestic violence and child abuse. Some of these cases can take over a year to come before courts with proper assessments because court time is being taken up by divorcing couples who should be sorting out their post separation issues outside of the courts time (within mediation).

Did I "excuse" killing? What a horrendous thing to say about me - shame on you. No - I said, specifically, that I was trying to look for "reasons", not writing "excuses" - if we UNDERSTAND the phenomenon, we can start to do something about it other than shake our heads and tut - therefore let me make it clear AGAIN - there is NO justification for this under any circumstances, and frankly, I'm shocked that people are actually thinking that I could excuse this kind of thing - jeez.

Why can't some people distinguish between "reasons" and "excuses" - they are two different phenomenon - one is to do with cause/effect relationships, the other is to do with moral/ethical validity. I could say that the condittions and ideologies in Palestine are a REASON for suicide bombing, but that in NO WAY EXCUSES it. It is completely unacceptable, but also a phenomenon that is possible to understand in the context of the lives of palestinians and the ideologies being spread in the region - we can get at reasons, but we can never excuse. Surely it is possible to develop understanding of most things, even the most inhumane, evil acts - we could develop an understanding of the historical reasons for the rise of the the Nazis and the Third Reich - that wouldn't 'excuse' Hitler and his cronies, but it might help us avoid a repeat - and that's the point of rational understanding - to learn to do things differently.

Two other minor points -

Firstly - yes, I work on domestic violence issues - in fact, at the national conference I'm in charge of in April, we are addressing some of these issues in partnership with the Home Office's domestic violence unit and some of the Domestic Violence agencies, and we're also tackling men and child abuse at the conference. We have also consulted for HMG on male victims of domestic violence (19% of cases, according to Women's Aid). (If anyone is actually interested in what I work for and stand for, you can find out by looking at the brochure for this conference, which is here ).

Secondly, I am NOT part of Fathers-4-Justice or Families Need Fathers, nor do I necessarily agree with their approaches. I have some sympathy with the issue, because I come across plenty of decent men who cannot see their children and it hurts me to see how it's tearing them (and their children) apart (Nb - I know men who have committed suicide over it, but not murder - someone I met two months ago committed suicide a couple of weeks ago because he couldn't cope with the separation anymore - he was unhinged, but self-destructive, not 'other'-descrtuctive). I'm sure we all know dads who are horrible and nasty, but believe me, there are perfectly decent men out there who have had their children taken away from them, and they are desperately hurt. It is a problem that needs a solution. The divorced fathers issue is a fraction of the issues we focus on - we focus far more on health/education/social welfare/prison services issues (if you're genuinely interested please click the link above - the conference brochure - for a rounded picture of what we're about and who we work with). We do not, as F-4-J do, agree with a 50-50 presumption of contact, as this would priviledge parental rights over children's rights, which we think is wrong - this is also the government position But we do think the legal system needs changing - it's just that we think it can be changed without changes in the law. What we ARE doing in this field, and we're advising the DCA on this, is look to develop pilots for a new way of processing divorces within the courts that channel most couples into mediation to develop a post-separation parenting plan at an early stage, thus reducing court time and costs, and allowing the courts to fast track and resource cases involving accusations of violence or abuse in order to protect both victims and the wrongly accused. If any of you are actually doing anything more constructive on this issue, I'd be most interested to find out.

I despair sometimes. I'm worried about writing this, as I feel very angry, and I'm aware that has the potential to inflame, rather than reconcile, but I don't mean to offend anyone, merely to defend myself. Please don't take this as a sword, but as a sheild.

popsycal · 06/02/2004 22:00

you guys are right about nicksie....seems obvious after re-reading the posts....

lilibet · 06/02/2004 22:02

its impossible to ban someone. You can only ban their nickname or the e mail address that they have reistered with. Nothing to stop anyone registering with a new e mail address, and how could anyone tell from that?

Could I add that I think that Tom made some valid points and I think we jumped on him a bit too much?

"What's wrong with anyone who can even hurt a child - I've no idea" 3.06

"Nothing excuses violence and control though, and in many of these cases, the violence started well before the separation. " 3.28

"I think that men who are seriously unhinged, violent, abusive etc etc, and perhaps have ideas about men controlling women, can be tipped into this kind of behaviour by feelings of loss of control - the only control left them is over life/death. " 5.44

Nothing wrong with any of those statements, I was married to a violent control freak for many years and I feel a custody battle looming as its another way of him trying to gain control. He has said that unhinged men, who are usually violent before marriage can behave like this and it is inexcuseable. Sorry but I think he makes sense!

I have never in my 2 years of posting said anything controversial before. aaarrgghhh!

pie · 06/02/2004 22:03

OT - lilibet its not impossible to ban someone, you can block an IP address.

lilibet · 06/02/2004 22:08

posts crossed tom, sorry

lilibet · 06/02/2004 22:21

What's an ip address?

pie · 06/02/2004 22:33

Whenever you use the internet you have a unique IP address. IP is internet provider, these addresses can be blocked. Of course someone can sign up with a new IP, but its more hassle than signing up for new email account.

MeanBean · 06/02/2004 22:58

Hi Tom
I don't think necessarily the comments people were making were a direct reference to your posting, more a widening out of the arguments. I agree with much of what you said in your postings, but would take issue with a point you made in the last one, about how post separation issues should be dealt with outside of court time, by mediation.

Mediation is a system which inevitably favours the more confident, articulate and determined party in the process. When it was first introduced, there were quite a few reports about how women were being bullied by the men who had spent years cowing them in their marriages, and that these men were effectively manipulating and in some cases, bullying the mediator. The problem with mediation, is that it works on the basis that everybody is reasonable, and while it is a great idea for the majority of couples, who manage to sort out contact details etc., without killing each other or anyone else, it just doesn't work for the very extreme cases which are being discussed on this thread. In those situations, scared women don't need a sensible straightforward mediator, who guides them towards the path of least resistance, they need a hard-hitting lawyer who won't allow his client to be walked all over. Unless mediation has evolved to take these issues into account (and I don't know - maybe it has) I would be very sceptical about its efficacy as regards protecting the safety and emotional well-being of women and children in these extreme cases where violence and abuse has been part and parcel of the relationship (which is a good indicator of future abuse and violence).

Swipe left for the next trending thread