What is the matter with these men? (Not funny)

[Janh]

Another one who killed most of the family and then jumped off a bridge - left the baby in the car this time

BBC

Two quite separate issues. Broadly

1. men who were violent and controlling along, which is presumably why their wives left them, and the courts thought the children would be better with acccess denied, then 'reclaiming' ultimate control through murder
2. men who through various difficult circumstances of the separation process are denied access to their children THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, who presumably feel untold anguish but would never harm either mother or child.

I have full symapthy for men in the second category, but unfortunately their cause seems to me to be obstructed by the numerous men who do their best to duck parental responsibility on separation. Very few women seem to 'use' children to the children's detriment against men, and there are many examples on this Board of women who have been grievously and violently wronged but continue to support the child's relationship with their partner. All the cases I have known personally where men were denied access, it was because of their own very bad or unreliable behaviour towards their children.

Story update is here

this just makes me sick - he was a nasty violent man to begin with and it beggers belief that it all ended like this with 3 little lives being taken and god knows how many more destroyed.

I do think it quite ironic that lots of men have to have restraining orders placed on them for their behaviour and there is still people like Tom who still immediately come out with the same old lines about them being kept away from their families - I just can't get to grips with this at all - it just makes me so so sad. I wonder how many of the men dressing up and stageing protests are kept away from their children for bloody good reasons - and why can't so many men see that they should be kept away from their children if they are violent or abusive to the children's mother.

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Can't even bring myself to comment on this

Tom you're on a loser imo even asking us to consider
'a correlation between these kinds of events and breakdown of the relationship/loss of family that needs to be picked up on - it is a contributing factor, no?'

Just because their relationship has broken down does not give ANYONE, whatever their gender, the right to take another persons life. I'm sorry, but you really can't take it down to that level, it is far too simplistic IMO.

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i would not have stopped DD seeing him, no - but his behaviour no matter how bad was not nearly as bad as this murderers was - lots of it was mental abuse and stopping me seeing DD - even now he is pretty dillusional about the whole thing - it never happened IHO!!

I just think that no on can use any excuse when things like this happen other than the fact that the guy was menatlly ill or just plain evil.

We will never get to a stage in this conversation where we can understand or empathise with this guy - he is just beyond contempt.

Nicksie, young girls being found to have had babies - often alone and having been in denial of the pregnancy - and then either smothered them or the baby never having breathed is not uncommon, and nothing like what this man did.

Tom, do you know much about domestic violence and the link with men who slaughter their families? Do you know that the most dangerous time in an abused woman's life is when she finally gets the courage to leave? An abused woman is most likely to die, not if she stays in a violent relationship, but if she leaves. People constantly say, 'why didn't she/doesn't she leave?' but in fact women aren't stupid. Many of them KNOW what their partners are capable of - they say they will kill their partner and their children if the woman leaves and THEY MEAN IT. And that's exactly what they do. The men don't kill because they are sad they aren't seeing their children, they kill because they are violent controlling men who can't bear to have the control taken away from them. Men who love their families don't systematically abuse their partners - and often their children too. These are totally separate issues. These men don't kill out of sadness, they kill as a continuation of the violence and control they used in the relationship. In this most recent case, the woman was continually attacked - she had a bloody injunction against him FFS. So he came back and killed her and the kids. It's not even unusual. The case where the man came back with a shotgun and killed his wife and teenage son (as he ran away from him down the garden path) was also a violent man whose wife was so afraid of him that she had a panic button in the house - fat lot of good that did her. Don't tell me these man are 'driven' to kill by their unreasonable partners until you know a bit more about these cases. It makes me SO angry. Especially as the misogynist press coverage strongly implies that the women were to blame in just the way you suggest. This tragedy was not unexplicable or unpredicatable. It was, sadly, almost routine.

Well said Aloha. X

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Who cares what "motive" this guy had? You never have a "motive" to such killings. He is just very mad and very bad. Tragic!
And yes, if my DH beat me up, I would do anything in my powers to stop him from seeing our children!

Is there a possibility pf this young girl giving birth to a stllborn and being scared of what would happen - she would be overwhelmed with emotion from the birth and her hormones would be all over the place - even the medical and judicial establishments recognise this state that is why there is infanticide and it is attributed to cases like this - in some states in the US that still have the death penalty you are not put to death for infaniticide because they realise this too.

And I will never agree with Tom or even with the suggestion that this could be a contributing factor - I have been seperated from my child and was so sad and depressed because what my x2b was doing was essentially harming her keeping her from me - I wanted her happiness and safety and not once would I have thought about harming her - I thought about harming myself but knew this would be just as damaging for her - she needed me whether it was every weekend or thankfully as it is not all of the time.

The thread in this case was that he had a history of being violent, this was one of the reasons the relationship had broken down.
I met a man once who thought it was entirely logical that if I didn't want him around me then he had a right to try and exterminate and ruin my life too as well of that of my child.
Yes he was mad at the time, but he now lives with a woman and her two kids and their own baby seemngly balanced and successful!
It beggars belief, certain situaions and relationships turn people mad. It's no excuse nor even a reasonable explanation, we often aren't aware of what people are capable off until they have crossed the line.
Tragic indeed especially for that little darling left alone.

Nicksie, the issue is Tom was wrong. These cases have been widely studied and the men are NOT loving caring men with no previous history of violence who are driven insane by being separated from their children. They are invariably violent men (often extremely so - the mother in this case was often seen covered in cuts and bruises) who do this as the final punishment and act of violence to their partners. Tom suggested the reason for this act was because this man had been 'driven insane by lack of contact with his children' (I quote) No. He was vicious before. He continued to be vicious. In fact there is not even evidence that he couldn't see his children - though obviously it was far better that he was kept as far away as possible from this woman and children as was humanly possible - or don't you agree Tom? I do think men who are violent to their partners so forfeit their right to be in the children's lives.

My post of 2pm on Wednesday suggested the real reason for this crime - the partner was habitually violent. At the time I didn't know the details, but I was right, wasn't I?

As I said in my post on Wed, I don't think it helps the cause of men who are caring fathers in anguish to link them with this sort of outrage.

Doesn't do women any favours either as there is an implication that they have provoked men into doing this by denying access.

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No, actually. I don't believe that loving parents slaughter their children because they love them. I suspect I have read more about these cases than Tom has. And actually, I find it so insulting to the memory of these dead women to find them, by implication, blamed for their own deaths and those of their children. It is disgraceful. These men are adults who have decided to do a terrible thing for evil motives. Their partner's only role in that decision was to remove themselves and their children from the men's violence. The consequences are NOT their fault. I am sick to death of these men being described as 'devoted fathers' in the press. Does Bunglie harbour fantasties about murdering the children taken from her by Roy Meadows? No. She just carries on loving them even though she can't see them. Unbelievably, she doesn't even seem to harbour murderous thoughts about Roy Meadows - which doesnt stop me though!

Brilliant post Aloha.

Nicksie, see Blu's post below - which I think describes the two categories of separated father pretty well.

In Tom's defence, in answer to my earlier post of 4 February, he did acknowledge the dangers that face women who try to leave violent partners and the need for secure refuges.

There is a very moving and horrific article in today's Guardian about a woman whose husband killed her two children 10 years ago - it's here

Nicksie, I agree with aloha. She is right imo and Tom is wrong. and no, they can't both be right.

I agree with Aloha too. I started reading the Guardian article, but couldn't read it all