So, us rotten lot....

[scarredpierced]

How many of us actually meet Shona's little sidekicks criteria?
She states that all of us on Mumsnet are in our 30s, living in London and have a degree. How many people here meet that criteria?
How many are popping prozac depressed at the shit life we now have with kids?
Damn that woman is nasty!

Why should I be proud of her achievements?
I don't know her.

bunny I think saying all a woman has to do is work hard at school and you can get an island is really patronising and I think it was ribbing about her island not exactly being mean

of course i have condensed what xenia said obviously

No, I mean we should all be proud of our own achievements.

I think everyone is proud of their achievements. However they can't all be measured in material goods/islands etc.

I say we launch a raiding party a la Swallows and Amazons. Imagine Xenia's face as she saw a ruck of mumsnetters aboard a flotilla of Pedalos and dressed like Pirates.

I haven't got pirate costumes. >

I have something better than a pirate costume. I've spent all day begging DH (very un-feminist, I know, but I don't earn my own money atm) and he's agreed it's not stupid to buy this dress: www.limb-clothing.com/prod2.cfm?product=81256

You may not think it's pirate-y but click on the close-up of the fabric:

www.fancymoon.co.uk/midnight-pastoral-cotton-fabric-by-alexander-henry.html

I could def. go pirate raiding in it. Oh yeah.

I have a load of hooped red and white t-shirts (as a result of my velvet underground obsession!) so you could borrow one of those. Cutlasses might be harder to come by.

Just picking up on something said earlier, I don't think Xenia is that worried about her privacy on here. I don't think she's that lax with personal information, just fully aware she is easy to track down based on the biographical details she posts on here quite regularly. I happen to know who she is from a forum I was on years and years ago, but I also just found her very easily on Google.

I assume she uses another name for any 'my mother is driving me around the bend' type posts. If you look, it's all mostly politics she posts about as Xenia.

Yes, that's right. I avoid lots of topics on line like boyfriends, men, personal things.

I didn't think the page showing islands gave the owner's name but I may be wrong.

I certainly only mentioned it because people suggested if we said we had a degree meant we were showing off which given 50% of people now have degrees seems a little inaccurate and suggested some of us have other things and I did say the nicest thing is the lovely large family. Islands are not that expensive. There are about 100 in that group of islands alone. I love it and I know a lot of other people have other hobbies and would like to spend their money on football matches or shoes or cars if they are lucky enough to have any to spare. We all have different interests.

It is extremely hard to explain to people why you like to camp in wilderness and swim in the Pacific when their idea of a nice time is a top hotel but it would be a pretty boring world if women all had the same hobbies.

Someone suggested I had misled about myself? I doubt that as I never write anything inaccurate.

I think a load of women are totally limited by low ambitions and very low expectations probably because of their parents, school or fact their own mother did not earn much. That is such a shame. I don't think what I did which is buy a lump of rock not costing much is that hard to achieve. As I said the plan which you can also have your daughters follow is work very very hard at school. Get the best A levels in the school. Work very hard at university. Win prizes for coming top. Pick a career which is well paid, not acting because you think it will be fun and then you do well.

Most girls do not do this and are not interested in money or islands (and that is fine if that's what they want) and are happy to hang out on mumsnet creditcrunch threads worrying if they can afford a particular kind of chicken. I am saying we have some control over our lives and it is good for women to see what is possible if you work very hard and are reasonably bright.

I quite fancy this one Xenia, but again the shops are a bit of a worry.

not all women are capable of earning that much money though xenia Yes I have DDs and yes they work/ed hard at school and dd1 is going into quite a good career fingers crossed dd2 is still at school,

tbh i was thick at school i didn't have the potential for university or the means to start my own company as i said before I do think you saying work hard at school get a well paid job was patronising. and yes it did come up on the search about your island who you were, I didnt go looking for women who own islands or anything

It might not show the owner's name, but there is a woman whose bio reads like your MN persona who is using the same link as her Pacific Island.

But credit to you, I'm very impressed and would like to end up being as successful. To this end I will get off MN and get on with my post grad coursework...

I don't actually want an island...

I think part of the secret is not measuring success solely by material wealth. Of course it is important to have a certain level of financial security, and striving for that is worthwhile. DH and I own our house mortgage-free, and we have enough in saving to live on for 5+ years if disaster struck. We know how privileged we are to be in that position.

However, we could choose to think that was not enough, because we don't own islands or mansions, because we don't wear expensive designer gear, because we don't have the newest and shiniest of everything. I feel that this kind of aspiration is actually quite corrosive, because it ignores less tangible aspects of happiness.

Alongside our material wealth, DH and I have two lovely DDs who do very well in school and are a joy to be around most of the time. We have friends we love, hobbies we enjoy and the ability to find absolute contentment in a BBQ in our back garden and a good book. I don't think considering these things important is about low aspirations at all, it's about seeing the bigger picture.

You could own a dozen islands and not be happy.

I do however agree with Xenia that it is important for women to be able to earn their own living.

And let's not forget health plays a huge part. Not everyone has their health and no amount of ££££s can fix it.

I like to analyse it.
My island cost less than the first flat my daughter has bought recently in her mid 20s so I do not see why it should be regarded as impossible for women to buy islands.

I have 3 children who have graduated. I know what it is like out there getting jobs at present but it remains the case that if you have the best exam results in your school, do not spend your university years drinking and work on career development and opick a job where most people are paid well rather than most people aren't then you are increasing your chances. It does not hurt if you work for 30 years without a break and take no maternity leaves either. They can also move hundreds of miles away from home for work and their husband can follow their career. All these things have helped me ( and staying reasonably slim and eating well so I am never ill so far touch wood....)

I agree that lots of women never earn enough to get a mortgage for an average size flat.

So in a sense I am on the coal face of graduate careers and I do know it is hard but if people follow that formula above which is what most parents want for daughters I hope - work hard at school, not mess around, enjoy your subject, work at it etc etc then you tend to have a better chance.

I spent a lot of time helping young women wanting advice about careers. I don't tend to write about it but it's fairly constant and I think a lot of them find it helpful. Sometimes they just need to know basic things like don't wear bare legs to the interview or stop saying "you know" and practise how to speak well in interviews. Sometimes they need to think laterally. I applied to 115 places before I got my first job - we were just moving into the Thatcher era and a whole generation of my age victims of the 70s ended up with no proper jobs ever it was that bleak so yes I know it can be very hard in down turns in market cycles.

Lean in. Don't take long maternity leaves (see women who take 2 week maternity leaves threads), be the best at what you do in the UK, adore your work, make men follow your career not vice versa. Do not tolerate sexism at home and pick something where people who may pay you have money and wages are high and it can be possible to do okay.

I agree with some of what you say Xenia (and strongly disagree with other bits).

Just to pick up one area, I strongly agree with encouraging all children to think about the actual career potential of what they love to do. I think too many are encouraged to simply find something they enjoy and then try and build a career around it, resulting in massive oversupply in creative industries and downward pressure on wages. A lot of those people could also have been guided the other way - to find something with prospects that they enjoyed.

However, I took the advice about knuckling down, working hard, winning prizes. I had an outwardly great career at 30. I bloody hated it. Although I had picked something I thought I would like, actually long term I didn't. And as someone whose own family just didn't move in those circles, I had had limited experience of the reality of any of these careers before I graduated. Just what you could research through graduate careers, early online sources, industry publications, etc. So after 10 years in a demanding, prestigious, high paid job I jacked it in and am currently a SAHM with no idea what to do with the rest of my working life.

You have worked incredibly hard, which I admire. But for most people there is also an element of luck in finding a career you seem to genuinely love (and part of your advice is to adore your work) which is also well paid and with good prospects. I managed the latter two, but turned out the former didn't pan out for me.

"I like to analyse it.
My island cost less than the first flat my daughter has bought recently in her mid 20s so I do not see why it should be regarded as impossible for women to buy islands."

i don't regard it as impossible, Im just not sure what the point is.... unless of course its to avoid the tax man

Xenia, I am not keen on your island - would prefer something more chilly and Scandinavian - but well done to you,

and this is not meant critically... you are addressing people in their mid-late 30s, 40s and 50s, and for them quite a lot of your advice may be too late. What then ARE you saying to THOSE women? Because people are even less likely to warm to changes of career in middle-aged women than to women pursuing 'normal' career paths. What are you saying to those who don't live in the SE? To those who already have several children?

I think a load of women are totally limited by low ambitions and very low expectations probably because of their parents, school or fact their own mother did not earn much. That is such a shame.

I agree with a lot of what you say Xenia (and disagree like AmandaPayne with plenty.)

I am lucky to have DCs who are all rounders academically but I have almost ordered them to go into careers that involve maths and/or science or if a humanities degree is involved then one where a heavy maths component is required. It's not a case of pushing square pegs into round holes or forcing poets down the mines; they like maths.

"You cannot show off about a man I' m afraid. We want women with their own glory not reflected glory and now women who are just powers behind the throne. They need their own throne - much more fun."

Actually, i can show off about my man - he isn't perfect, but he is a good father, who has stuck with me through thick and thin, I have my own glories to bask in, but a loving relationship with someone who i admire IS definately my proudest (apart from my DDs of course, but its up there). Material stuff?? Well, if thats what floats your boat. I know what i prefer.

i don't regard it as impossible, Im just not sure what the point is.... unless of course its to avoid the tax man

not that iwanted to say that or anything