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Original poster

..the village where children are banned..a new kind of utopia?

89 replies

zippitippitoes · 08/04/2006 07:02

You also have to be over 45 years old, no starting the car after 9.00pm etc etc

\link{http://www.guardian.co.uk/family/story/0,,1748634,00.html\ here}

a taste of the article

<

'There comes a time when you want to live without children'
............

"It's like Britain was 30 years ago, where you live among considerate and polite neighbours. If a stranger comes into the village, everyone will take notice," says Eden Guisley, the chair of the Firhall Residents Association.

Some residents have children and grandchildren of their own, but feel that they have done their bit and now want to be free of the problems that living among them can bring. "Everywhere you go today you are expected to pander to the needs of children," one home-owner, who has asked not to be named, tells me. "They are noisy, messy and destructive, but try and complain to the parents, and nine times out of 10 you will make yourself an enemy," she says. "I have to put up with badly behaved children in restaurants and parks. I want my neighbourhood to be free of that."

There have been legal challenges to child-free communities in the US. In 1977, a couple was forced out of their Florida condominium after having a baby. The unsuccessful age discrimination suit went as far as the supreme court. There have been other successful cases since then, but none that conclude that living without children should be seen as discrimination. In the UK there are those who believe no one has the right to exclude children from any neighbourhood.

Carolyn Hamilton, the director of the Children's Legal Centre, is adamant that such communities should be challengeable under the Human Rights Act. "If nothing else, it perpetuates the stereotype of children as nuisances and criminals.">

communities for special interest groups of all kinds could follow which is what is happening in the US

OP posts:
Moomin · 09/04/2006 11:50

I was thinking of chitty chitty bang bang actually! but either example will do!

Moomin · 09/04/2006 11:53

On the actual subject in hand... I can totally understand not wanting to be surrounded with badly behaved kids. We've tried really hard to make sure dd1 knows how to behave in public and we can take her most places now but it does take some effort. I hate the way some parents allow their kids to behave and in this way i can understand not wanting to be around them. I know this might sound pious or smug but i don't care!

Caligula · 09/04/2006 12:04

I don't really see why the world should cater for people who don't want to be around children, any more than they should cater for people who don't want to be around black people, women, Welsh people, etc.

There's nothing to stop them catering for themselves of course, and they have every right to do so. But they shouldn't be surprised if others outside their narrow little group decline to help them when they need help. That's what society is all about - different groups of people co-operating with each other, not ignoring each other. I know that in the real world, society doesn't always operate in the way it should, but we have the choice of accepting that society's awful and can't be changed so we build strong walls and gates around us, or we can decide that we want to change society so that it does work the way we want it to or at least closer to the way we want it to. I've always been in favour of the latter, myself.

motherinferior · 09/04/2006 12:21

Hmmm. I am quite partial to a spot of time not encumbered by children but I do like having them around the place.

Oblomov · 09/04/2006 12:28

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Caligula.
I don't think that you can compare people who want adult only - i.e. no children, to people who don't want to be around black or wesh - isn't that rascist ?

I understand that some people do not want children or can not have children.
I understand that they want to go to restaurant that is adult only - no children.
I understand that, appreciate that & support that.

Two of my friends are early 30's and childless.
They are frequently asked to work extra shifts. When asked why mary or john can't do it.
They are told that Mary & John have families and thus can not be expected to.
My friend has booked a long weekend away to Glasgow.
But this is choice of how you sopend your time is considerred to be not as important as someone who 'can't work because they have family commitments'.
I believe this to be wrong.

I feel the world totally caters for children - pandering to their every whim in an o-t-t way.
I believe the the world caters to children and families.
And I believe the world does not cater very much for the childless person and what their wishes are.

I have tried to express myself correctly, without criticising anyone on mumsnett particularly.
Please appreciate that this is only my opinion.

Oblomov · 09/04/2006 12:33

Also Caligula, we on mumsnet are bought together by children, right ?
But there are lots & lots of poeple who do not have children and do not want children, right ?

When you said 'narrow little group' you weren't refering to childless people,I assume ?

Caligula · 09/04/2006 12:40

Yes it is racist, but some people are. Just as some people are hostile to children. I think both are unattractive.

Hmm, when I can contemplate going for a day out using public transport with children without breaking out in a cold sweat, then I'll agree with you that the world caters for children.

The thing is about these people, is that they don't want to be inconvenienced by the tiresomeness of ordinary life. Which none of us do, from time to time. If we can buy ourselves out of ordinary inconvenience, fine, but I think they will miss out in other ways. Not least of which, they won't have the pleasure of whingeing about how badly behaved children are nowadays and how much better parents they were than this generation, because there won't be anyone around to moan about.

You can also imagine that they'll find a whole new set of inconveniences to get obsessed about - in the absence of children, car engines and washing on the line, they'll start to get upset about the length of the grass or the colour of the curtains. People who are so irritated by normal life that they feel the need to cut themselves off from it so completely, are bound to find something else to worry about in the absence of the usual sources or irritation.

SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2006 12:46

oblomov, have you read the thread?

not having children/ not wanting them is not the same as wanting to live in a village where they are banned, and yes, it is comparable to racism, in my opinion.

No one can be forced to work extra shits by the way.

Original poster
zippitippitoes · 09/04/2006 12:51

ok they are living in a narrow viilage community denying themselves the pleasures that a lot of other people take for granted...but is it not a bit hypocritical of them to expect their lives to be made possible through the very children that they want to isolate themselves from

I think as soon as you get any sort of artificially ghettoised community then profound changes start to take place in society as a whole

OP posts:
Oblomov · 09/04/2006 12:52

I don't think that they are 'hostile' to children, Caligula.
Wanting to eat in a restaurant that is adult only, is acceptable.
Before we had ds, dh & I preferred eating in places without children.
Don't lots of couples do this, prior to having children ?
Even now, sometimes we take ds to the..... harvester for example.
Sometimes dh and I go out to dinner, and we want time on our own - we do not want to eat in a restaurant wiht children.
Don't you think this is normal ?
Not anti children, or hostile to children, is it ?

Have you ever read the book:-
"The Baby Boon" - How family-friendly America cheats the childless - by Elinor Burkett ?

There are atleast a few points in there that you have to agree with and have a bit of sympathy for the hard time that childless couples get compared to couples with children.

SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2006 12:53

just re-read my post - there is an excellent typo in the last line, which i don't think I'll correct.

anyway - zippi - I was going to say something about children being necessary to society and that stuff too. but I'm not feeling clever enough today.

Oblomov · 09/04/2006 12:56

Yes I did read the whole thread senora.
And in my earlier post I did agree that it was boring , o-t-t, etc.
I do believe that they are extreme.
But I was just saying that not wanting to be around children was not such a crime and that lots of people don't want to be around children.

SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2006 12:57

again, having a meal in an adult only restaurant occasionally is not the same as living in a village where they are banned.

saying that, actually I don't see the need for "adult only" restaurants at all. yes, parents can relax more without their own kids but why let other people's kids bother you? ALL restauarants in spain allow children and I can't say i've ever been truly inconvenienced by them. they might be a bit noisy, but they are a lot less irritating than the fat yuppy types you get in posh restaurants.

lucy5 · 09/04/2006 13:00

Hehehehehe!

SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2006 13:00

..l.and of course we can't have fat yuppy-free restaurants because that would be fattist or yuppist or something. It is exactly like racism.

Caligula · 09/04/2006 13:05

But as Senora says, wanting to go to a posh restaurant where there are no children, isn't the same as wanting to totally cut yourself off from any contact at all.

And also, no I can't understand wanting to go to a restuarant without children. Wanting to go to a restaurant without badly behaved, noisy children who have taken the place over, yes I can understand and sympathise with. But tbh if I went to the nice local Thai restaurant and there were a couple of well-behaved kids there, eating their dinner along with their parents, I wouldn't notice them - why should I want them to leave? If they were running around and being a nuisance, then yes, that would get on my nerves. But I don't automatically expect children to be badly behaved, tbh and I don't automatically categorise normal childish behaviour as "bad". Only if it directly interferes with my enjoyment of my restaurant experience, do I get irritated by it. But my enjoyment of restaurants is far more likely to be spoiled by an adult who lights up when my starter arrives, than by a child talking slightly louder than adults have taught themselves to.

Caligula · 09/04/2006 13:05

Exactly - cross posted with Senora

Original poster
zippitippitoes · 09/04/2006 13:09

if children are discouraged from going to places where there are people of all ages then surely their ability to interact with adults will be severely impaired and

I think living in a closed community does imply that you really can't bear children

so who is going to feed and care for you in the broadest sense when you grow old?

and personally I find that children bring a lot of happiness and spirit to public places

OP posts:
jabberwocky · 09/04/2006 13:13

This sounds like one of those retirement communities in Arizona. Maybe that's where they got the idea.

flutterbee · 09/04/2006 13:25

So if childless restaurants etc is now an ism then what about smoke free restaurants is that some kind of ism as well?

Maybe just maybe this kind of thing gets to people who have children because you instantly feel pushed out, if we have fantastic places to go with kids as we do then shouldn't people who want a grown ups only meal have somewhere to go as well.

Caligula · 09/04/2006 13:26

What fantastic places?

flutterbee · 09/04/2006 13:26

I have to say that the little village they live in sounds like the most boring nasty bitchy place on earth but if there happy there then fine, its only themselves that they are making so sodding unhappy and if there like that I don't particually want to socialise with them anyway!!!!!!!!

flutterbee · 09/04/2006 13:28

Well I know of some particually good pubs that have huge childrens play areas in with kids running around all over the place whooping and shouting, I find it a tad unfair that no one could ever go for a meal there without wondering if they are going to have a small stampede going on next to them.

Caligula · 09/04/2006 13:28

tbh flutterbee I don't mind being "pushed out" of such a bizarre set up. There is something very wierd about a place where you aren't allowed to put washing on the line or go out in your car after 9pm.

flutterbee · 09/04/2006 13:31

Thats the point this whole village thing is really strange and damn right stupid if you ask me, a touch of cutting off your nose to spite your face springs to mind.

Having said that having child free restaurants etc is a good idea, just as long as they make sure that there are places to take the kids to as well.

I totally agree with you about public transport though.