For those of you gripping about nhs dentists....

[chicagomum]

Just to give you an example of why so many dentists are turning private.

Under the new scheme for NHS dentistry that comes into effect on the 1st of April, The amount dentists will be paid is calculated (certainly by our primary care trust) is based on data collected between October 2004 and september 2005. Our practice has grown considerably since then so the offer we have been given means that we will have to accept a reduction in pay by 20%.

If you have kids, a morgage to pay etc would you consider going private too?

People seem to forget at the end of the day we aren't robots who provide a service and then go into a cupboard at night @til the next morning, but (for the most part) caring proffessionals trying to balance providing a service and earning an income to keep our families housed,clothed, fed etc just like all of you.

Gripe over.

Ther is no funding for a private dentist from another source only the patient so if the patient doesn't pay the dentist doesn't get paid, so either its a good will thing on her part to keep you as a patient in the future or she is claiming for you through the nhs as an nhs patient. We do train at the tax payers expense (and to our detriment with loans we take out - which I'm still paying back) but I didn't realise that meant we had signed our lives over to the common good. Plus as far as I was aware all degrees at university are funded in the same way, but are you expecting everyone who went to university not to try and do the best for themselves and their families?

The new system will mean we are on a fixed monthly salary negotiated with their PCT. The offer I have been given is approximately 20% less than what I am earning now. I will be expected to fufill a minimum number of units of treatment (similar to the amount I do now) but won't get paid any extra if I do more. Can't you see how enticing it is for us to stay in the nhs. I don't see my bank offering to reduce my mortgage by 20% nor my childcare costs either.

Also, the dentist's have to pay staff & although the dentist will get a reduction in pay of 20%, you can bet that the staff won't be. Dental materials are some of the most expensive things you can buy. The manufacturers all think they are coining it in, so charge rediculous (sp) amounts of money for stuff.

I am so gald to be out of any type of dentistry at the moment, CM, I repect you & your practice for trying to stay afloat & offer treatment on the NHS!

So what about the idea of salaried dentists with the dental centres being run and funded by the nhs? It wouldn't suit every dentist as some would be happier working for more financial gain but it would get around the headache (and worry I'm sure)of running your own business.
And you might not agree with me but I do think if you train in a skill that is solely designed to help people then you do enter into a 'working for the common good' situation. Whether dentists take this on board is their business, but there are certainly many people who cannot afford tratment at the moment and some solution needs to be found.

And definitely not having a go at you personally Chigagomum as I realise many dentists aren't even giving it the thought you are and are simply going private.

Our paper has just reported that of the 1950 dentists in Scotland, 700 earn between £100-250K. Hardly struggling to put food on the table then...!

My dad was a dentist. He didn't have a penny to his name but managed to set up his own business by working all day, evenings in nursing homes, all day Saturdays and my mum was his receptionist. Being a dentist isn't an easy ride

Misquoted slightly there. It's actually 750, and the 1950 are NHS registered!!!!!

Misquoted slightly there. It's actually 750, and the 1950 are NHS registered!!!!!

Yes, but with that they have to pay staff wages, lease on property buy all equipment, materials servicing of equipment various insurances, lab fees etc etc etc. The list goes on and on. That isn't what goes into their "pocket" at the end of the day. Why should they sit back as the nhs/government makes it harder to maintain their existing income and not do something about it. How many of you would say "well my income is pretty good, so a loss of 20% is alright I guess I'll stay doing what I'm doing". Or do you say "hold on a minute I've a mortage etc to pay and a family to care for, the nhs is not servicing my needs so I will look else where?" What would you do????

totally agree Chicagomum

But Chicagomum - if the system is wrong, it needs to be fixed surely, the NHS can't continue forever funding a payment system which isn't working. GPs have recently negotiated a new contract with concerns so it is not just dentists Tony et al are picking on. I understand your frustration as an individual but what do you suggest the answer is? Was the BDA not involved in the negotiation of the contract framework?

Mog - in Scotland, particularly in deprived areas, there are salaried dentists working out of Community facilities and there are I believe plans to extend this further. The jobs advertised quoted a salary range of (I think) £45k to £65k. So certainly do-able!

£45-£65K is certainly not struggling to put food on the table, is it!

But that isn't the point. I never said the income was making us struggle to put food on the table, nor am I saying "woe is me" give me sympathy. I'm saying that I am sick of people making dentists out to be the bad guys and switching to the private sector because we are all money grabbing selfish *'s. If you are used to a certain level of income and have built your life around it (as I'm sure that is what we all do) ie certain size mortage, perhaps school fees and such things as loans (eg to set up your own practice- as the nhs doesn't fund that you know) you rely on that income. If it goes down or you are forced to work longer and longer hours to keep it at the same level who wouldn't look elsewhere to do it?

Also, dentsits often have 2 "houses" to run. They have all their bills/mortgages/rates fo their home & then the premises they own or rent.

How many of have to pay 2 lots of water/electric/gas/mortgage or rent/council tax/buildings & contents insurance plus staff to pay/instruments to buy/training courses to pay for/liability insurance the list is endless.

They won't be cutting staff wages by 20% they will be giving them the yearly increases. And commomn to misconception, not all dental nurses are poorly paid!

Sorry you feel like this, and hopefully you'll be pushing the Govt to look at introducing salaried dentists as the standard, as they are doing increasingly up here.

That having said, I've yet to see a poor dentist - but perhaps there are many out there who are getting by on an average worker's salary.

Basically what the new legislation is doing is making all dentists salaried (but the "salary" in question is determined by negotiations with your local PCT based on previous income and the budget they have been given to work with - ie allocate to all the nhs dentists under their area). This new regime which has been bought in to try and "rescue" the nhs is driving even more dentists into the private sector than the shoddiness of the old one. Plus all the promises of x number of thousands of new dentists by the year "whatever" that have been promised. With the numbers fleeing the nhs and the numbers retiring compared to the number of new graduates each year, it is going to be severly lacking. Rather than try and appease those who have already given loyal service to the nhs for many years they are looking abroad for "cheaper" alternatives.