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Original poster

For those of you gripping about nhs dentists....

91 replies

chicagomum · 27/02/2006 20:04

Just to give you an example of why so many dentists are turning private.

Under the new scheme for NHS dentistry that comes into effect on the 1st of April, The amount dentists will be paid is calculated (certainly by our primary care trust) is based on data collected between October 2004 and september 2005. Our practice has grown considerably since then so the offer we have been given means that we will have to accept a reduction in pay by 20%.

If you have kids, a morgage to pay etc would you consider going private too?

People seem to forget at the end of the day we aren't robots who provide a service and then go into a cupboard at night @til the next morning, but (for the most part) caring proffessionals trying to balance providing a service and earning an income to keep our families housed,clothed, fed etc just like all of you.

Gripe over.

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Pruni · 27/02/2006 21:23

Well, the system sucks, but I wouldn't be able to work as a dentist knowing that people on reasonable incomes simply couldn't afford private treatment for their families.
We are in that bracket. It's bloody inexcusable. I feel sorry for dentists, who clearly are not all raking it in (though some clearly are), but tbh I do feel a bit sorrier for myself and all those on a lower family income than our above-average figure who need dental treatment and put it off because of the cost.

jamiesam · 27/02/2006 21:23

Wow - \link{http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/politics_show/4742490.stm\this} link from bbc last week says that dentists would earn only £80,000 under the new contract. Oh, plus practice expenses of the same amount. Sorry but I had no idea new contracts were so stingy!

Original poster
chicagomum · 27/02/2006 21:29

A private dentist is "a law unto his/her-self " in that they regulate their own fee scale but are registered and monitored for proffessional conduct. The only reason and exempt pt gets free treatmaet is that the nhs (ie the government) pays for the treatmnet rather than the patinet. When private the dentist only gets paid if the patient "coughs up". Also on another point of interest - if you have to pay for treatment, you pay 80%, the nhs pays the remainding 20%. If a pt fails to pay and you can't get the money of them you can't submit a claim to the nhs for the 20%, for if you do they will give you the 20%, but you will be taxed on the 100% even though you didn't earn it.

Sorry I am now rambling, but I am tired (from lack of sleep etc) and am "tired" of this idea that we dentists are the bad guys.

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Furball · 27/02/2006 21:36

Chigagomum - Out of interest, can I ask how much roughly a filling is by a private dentist? Is it more than £42?

Original poster
chicagomum · 27/02/2006 21:37

Oh I'm soory jamiesam - I didn't realise that the bbc have the true information, but as an nhs dentist I have false information. I am currently sitting in front of the paper work I recieved from my local PCT (primary care trust) that is offering me a contract for 20% less than I am currently earning and I am listening to people gripe about how dentists are out for themselves and stating false information. Each dentist is discussing an individual contract with their own pct in each area and there is no blanket income. Angry

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Original poster
chicagomum · 27/02/2006 21:37

Oh I'm soory jamiesam - I didn't realise that the bbc have the true information, but as an nhs dentist I have false information. I am currently sitting in front of the paper work I recieved from my local PCT (primary care trust) that is offering me a contract for 20% less than I am currently earning and I am listening to people gripe about how dentists are out for themselves and stating false information. Each dentist is discussing an individual contract with their own pct in each area and there is no blanket income. Angry

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Furball · 27/02/2006 21:39

I don't think many here think that the dentists themselves are the bad guys, just the system.

Furball · 27/02/2006 21:40

Sorry Chigagomum - I thought you were a private dentist :)

Original poster
chicagomum · 27/02/2006 21:40

Furball - how long is a piece of string? By that I mean that it depends on the size/position of filling, the material used to fill and wether he/she works in Harley street or the Outer Hebrides. There is no legislation to control private fees (currently) so all you can do is get a quote (signed by both parties) up front, and if you feel it is unreasonable query it, ask for a second opinion etc.

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NomDePlume · 27/02/2006 21:41

i didn't realise that you are a dentist chicagomum, thought you were a dental nurse/assistant type bod. I agree that people are angry at the system, rather than the individuals.

Original poster
chicagomum · 27/02/2006 21:42

Nomdeplume, ime and from what I have seen since I have been "Here" I would have to disagree.

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NomDePlume · 27/02/2006 21:47

I suppose you, as a dentist, are seen as representative of the 'establishment' and so people do use you as a sounding board for their frustrations at the system, depite them being a little mis-directed. Not saying that's right, but I can why it happens. Same as people getting angry at doctors for not being able to prescribe live saving drugs because their particular Trust doesn't support it.

NomDePlume · 27/02/2006 21:48

sorry, "I can see why it happens...". I had 2.5 hours sleep last night and am flagging a bit

NomDePlume · 27/02/2006 21:49

and 'life saving'

jamiesam · 27/02/2006 21:51

Sorry chicagomum, I don't generally expect the bbc to peddle govt propaganda without getting the other side (eg BDA quote?). Is that what they've done in that link?

FWIW, my sister's stepdaughter is a dentist and going private, poss for similar reasons to you. But if the reason for going private is that the fall in income is from £100k to £80k, (ie 20% drop)then I would suspect that a lot of people's sympathy for dentists would wain...

Original poster
chicagomum · 27/02/2006 21:55

But what poeple don't understand is that we aren't totally funded by the nhs, ie we pay (take out loans etc) to set up a practice, buy equipment, the nhs doesn't pay for it, if a patient fails an appt we don't get paid we have to order (and pay for our materials, lab bills) and if patien't don't pay their bills we re out of pocket. All people seem to see is "dentists are insensitive high earning butchers" and framkly I tired (in more ways than one) and when I am in the throws of trying to sort out the best way of me staying in the nhs environment (as I have always wished to do ) and see the ingratitude in recent times it make s me wonder why I'm bothering.

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NomDePlume · 27/02/2006 21:55

I can see where you are coming from with that 'sympathies would wain' comment, but at the end of the day, the dentist's mortgage etc isn't going to drop in line with the nhs pay cut, are they ? So regardless of whether they earn £15k or £100k, they will (in all probability) be left with a HUGE hole in their home finances.

NomDePlume · 27/02/2006 21:56

Absolutely, your personal and business overheads don't drop in line with this, do they Chicagomum ?

jamiesam · 27/02/2006 22:01

So when link said that practice expenses would also amount to £80K that was untrue as well? Beginning to wonder if anything in the article was true?

Original poster
chicagomum · 27/02/2006 22:01

Jamiesam, I'm not nor ever said I am going private and I don't earn any where near £100,000. But what you also need to know is that as a person who runs a business (which is what a lot of dentists do) is that you have major overheads, equipment, materials, wages, lab fees, insurance etc etc, and a 20% reduction in the money coming into a business (for doing (at least) the same amount of work can't simply be dismissed.

I can understand that poeple will have a lack of sympathy simply because they percieve us to be high earners, however anyone with any comon sense can surely see why we aren't happy to be expected to work as hard (or harder) for less money?

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jamiesam · 27/02/2006 22:09

sorry again, thought you'd said you were thinking of going private.

you'll guess perhaps that I don't run my own business - not a very good reason for why I'm being hardhearted for effect on your business.

Do wonder though why bda don't make it into articles like that bbc link though (my own professional body is never there to 'defend' my profession either)

Original poster
chicagomum · 27/02/2006 22:18

I have written and subsequently deleted several posts about this situation as at the moment I am sitting her fuming over the paperwork I am expected to sign by the end of the week accepting a reduction in my income by a 5th and can only see going private as an alternative (something which I've never wanted to do) then see people moaning (and I can also understand that as private is bl**dy expensive) about us dentists.

Actually the other option entering my head is to jack it in entirely.

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jamiesam · 27/02/2006 22:22

oh god chicagomum, hate me instead of the bloody paperwork/government. Sorry for being so mean. I'm sure you don't earn anywhere near £100k, and I'd not cope with a 20% drop in income.

NomDePlume · 27/02/2006 22:22

I'd be AMAZED to find an NHS dentist on £100k

Original poster
chicagomum · 27/02/2006 22:29

Sorry jamiesam, didn't mean to get ratty with you personally, am tired and cross (thats the polite word) about this situation, and get "very" niggled about people quoting the media as gospel when I know the truth. Although having said that as a dentist and not a doctor/scientist/geologist etc etc (you get my point) I still am sucked in by media reports about "fields" I know nothing about.

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