anyone around - I need some advice re nanny - can't sleep! (long)

[jmg]

I have a nanny to look after dd(5) and DS(3). I was having the usual bedtime chat with DD tonight and she said 'why does x shout at DS when he won't eat his dinner - it is not fair if she can shout at him but we can't shout at her' to cut a long story short - I managed to get out of her that the nanny has been shouting at them for not eating their dinner. I had a discussion with her about 2 months ago where I said that I didn't believe in forcing children to eat when they don't want to so I want you to calmly take the food away if they won't eat and I am quite happy for you to only offer fruit as a pudding in these circumstances. If she is shouting at them then she has completely ignored what I asked her to do.

I also had a conversation where I asked her not to use our car to go home (to her house) during the day when DS is at nursery. I said she should use her own car. She is still using ours.

I am really upset this evening - hence the rant! Do you think I am over reacting - I hate the thought of leaving the kids with someone who shouts at them. I also feel that a nanny relationship has to be based on me trusting her to do what I ask her and she clearly has not.

Another complication is that she has her own child now (1 year old) who she brings to work. It has not worked out as I thought it would - in that I really feel my kids get no where near the attention they should considering that I pay her a lot of money to look after them.

What do you think I should do? I'm extremely wound up about this as you can probably tell!

I'm writing not because I'm full of wisdom but because I'm awake and because I, too, have a nanny (an occasionally problematic relationship in my case too) and can understand your frustration.

My previous nanny used to do/not do things we had discussed, just as you described. Example: I wanted 18 month-old ds to nap every afternoon. But nanny hated to be stuck around the house, so she'd take him out, and he'd never get a nap even though his napping was important to me. Some might say I should have sacked her, but she was fantastic in so many other ways, so we compromised over the nap thing because that's what I felt I needed to do at the time.

Current nanny is also great with the kids, but takes advantage in some major ways. Just had a word with the agency today about her, and they agreed I was getting yanked about, that she'd become the boss, not me. So I had a difficult chat with her today, and we'll see where that goes.

As for you: I don't at all think you're overreacting. I'm with you on the food thing. And her using your car when specifically asked not to is rather shocking to me. I think you need to have a serious talk with her about both issues, hard is that is. (I KNOW--I loath confrontation.) Just be as calm & rational as possible. Rehearse if necessary.

If her bringing her child to work is too big a problem, maybe you need to start looking for someone else. That issue sounds more unsolvable than the others IYSWIM. Good luck.

Nanny is a human, ask her as a human, she is not a thick slave. I'm sure if you bonded with them then maybe you'd get some answers

Thanks for that - I suppose its just the feeling I have that I always do the compromising. I have had the same nanny since I went back to work after having my first child and she is good in many ways. However, I think I'm not happy compromising in the things that affect the childrens happiness.

IMO its different saying 'oh she doesn't keep the place very tidy' from 'she shouts at the children'. I would be happy to compromise on the first but not the second.

I'm not sure legally where I stand in terms of not wanting to continue her employment. However the tax agency we use has a legal service which we subscribe to so I can check that in the morning.

Thanks for posting! Your comments are very welcome!

Just to make clear- my last post was directed at Expatkat - not the rather unfathomable statement from forestfairy.

The thing i've noticed about people with nanny's is that they are supposed to be you. They never can be or will be. If i looked after children day after day i would get my own personality into it and tell them that i would like it if they sat at the table eating there veg. Also these women feel too and wonder where there life is going, where there love is

No - I don't want her to be me and happy for her to put her own thought into work - but has to be in a way which lines up with our (my DH and my) wishes. If I went to work and did just what I fancy with no regard for what my boss wanted I'd be out on my arse pretty quickly.

I don't mind her asking the children to eat their food (they love veg by the way) but I don't want them shouted at.

At the end of the day I accept she has feelings - but my childrens feelings matter much more to me that hers.

I just don't think your children saying she shouted is a firing offense, it depends how we grade shouting

What would you do?

You're welcome, jmg. I agree that shouting at the children is a more serious problem than the ones I've described, and I'd be pretty upset about that too. Hope you get the answers you need tomorrow.

I'd stop listening to my children stay at home for a day and see there routine

jmg--ignore forestfairy. Her comments sound pretty aimed at winding you up. If a debate is her aim, it's a pretty poor way to start.

As you said yourself nanny's are not thick - she certainly isn't. I don't think she'd try shouting at them if I was around.

EXpatkat - I had reached that conclusion too - however was prepared to give the benefit of the doubt. I think you're right though - I'm off to bed now - will hope for some more constructive comments in teh morning.

Thanks for your comments though

I'm not trying to wind anyone up, i've got enough going on in my life. I don't get a kick out of pissing people off. I just have an opinion, and thats what i was giving. I thought that democracy was about that

Not much to say, JMG, as Nanny has never seemed like an option for us -- but just to say that I don't think you're over-reacting at all, either. But would be best (stability for you & the kids) if you could work the problems out, so I would think to try that first before giving up on her.

Shouting at a three year old over meals is totally unacceptable to me. Agree that when you do to work for someone you Cannot set your own rules and do as you like. If your boss says 'be nice to client X', you will get bollocked if you are rude to client X. I would be deeply upset if a nanny was shouting at my kids. I have looked after other people's children (not permanently) and I can tell you, I did not shout at them and don't shout at my own child at mealtimes either.
Listen to your instincts and your children. A friend of mine found out her nanny was smacking her kids after her children started to become upset at being left with her (not saying AT ALL that yours is doing this BTW) and subsequently unearthed all sorts of petty nastiness - and that her references were forged.

I'd start your grievance procedure if you have one jmg. i.e. this is a verbal warning, you've asked her not to shout at your children before and you've asked her not to use your car to go home before and she's blatantly ignored you. Not on and unacceptable imo.

I don't have a nanny and have no experience of it but she is employed by YOU. So, as with any job, she should be doing as asked. Yes, there maybe times when some little things can be overlooked but if this is frequent then you do need to chat with her and get everything sorted out. I think the using of your car is completely out of order - I wouldn't dream of using my head's car to nip home!!! And, I also think the bringing of her own child is a recipe for disaster. Even at my DD's nursery staff are not allowed to have their own children with them.

I agree. Used to have problems like this with my childminder (not shouting, but leaving dd in the highchair without being strapped in etc.), but tended to overlook them on the grounds that she was not a properly qualified nanny, and I was in the house anyway. I would expect a qualified nanny to stick to your instructions. As it goes I would also expect a nanny to avoid shouting at all except in extreme situations.

Agree with www - you should start some kind of grievance procedure and lay down the law!

Agree with others that you are entitled to give instructions to your nanny and to expect that she tries to carry them out.
If she fails to carry them out and it relates to an important aspect of her job in your eyes then you need to try to work it out with her, and to make it clear that certain of her actions are unacceptable to you. But best not dealt with in a confrontational laying down the law fashion, IYSWIM.
You should also have a view as to what your other options are - are other good nannies easy to come by? Would you really be better off if you sacked this one?

Maybe write a list of her good and bad qualities - right now perhaps only the bad ones have been brought into focus?
Good luck, this must be an upsetting time for you

I agree too. Shouting can be very upsetting, and the last thing you want is for food to become associated with fear. I'd have a 'friendly chat' with her again and say, in a friendly but firm way, that you can't abide shouting where food is concerned and it really winds you up for your car to be used outside of childcare. I would be honest and tell her your child has been talking about the shouting in a concerned way.

I had a safety issue with DS1's first childminder,so I know how worried you'll be feeling.

I have a nanny and I know sometimes she will get cross with my kids, I do too. However I would be really upset if my dd said that xxxx is always shouting at me. I would certainly bring that up with her. The nanny/mother relationship is very difficult, you need to trust and respect her, any breakdown of this makes it totally impossible to continue. They are there to look after your children in the way you agree, if you have particular rules/standards then that is what they should do. Me and my nanny discuss ways of disipling my children, so we both do the same. If she wants to impliment a new policy she will chat with me first.

ie We always have issues at mealtimes, both my children play up really badly, and take forever eating. We have implimented a three strikes and you are out idea if it is getting bad, they get 3 more chances to sit down and eat, or it is taken away from them and they go to their room. They can see it in practice as we do 3 crosses on a piece of paper. It works in that they can see it directly and it stops us continually getting irritated/cross. The nanny came up with this one, which I thought was good so we both follow it now.

jmg, I would sit down and discuss things with your nanny you need to make sure that you can trust her and if not give her a formal warning - verbal. Make her aware in writing what is expected of her from now on. Also be aware she may start looking for another job, I have found speaking to my nanny and her friends the minute the parents start getting 'heavy' they start looking.

hi jmg
have you made any decisions yet? have you thought about an alternative to a nanny at all - maybe nursery for example?
I also have a nanny and every now and then get really cross about things that she does that are different to how I would do things - sometimes I think it's just about wanting to be 'in control' as their mum, and sometimes it's things that are really important to me. But if I thought anyone was shouting at my children I'd be furious. Perhaps it's time to bite the bullet and look at replacing her and/or changing your childminding arrangements in other ways. Do you have a contract and what does it say about sacking her?

Thanks everyone - I feel a little bit more relaxed about the whole thing this morning - but still not happy.

I will take your advice and talk to her later today. I think I will try not to have a cosy, friendly chat with her as I did this the last time and it didn't work. I'm very keen to make sure that she knows this is a very serious issue for me.

As I said further down the thread she has been a good nanny in the main over the years. There have been frustrations but on things I was prepared to overlook.

I suppose what worries me most is that my eldest is probably only just old enought to express what happens in a believable way and to be brave enough to speak out. It just makes me wonder what else has been going on over the years. I think that is what makes it upsetting - in this type of relationship trust is everything - if that goes how do you repair it?

I hope this isn't going to sound like scaremongering, but maybe it would be worth telling your dd that you want her to tell you whatever happens? The nanny will inevitably know that she has told you about the shouting, and I would have thought that it's conceivable she might tell your dd never to tell tales again or something of the sort. You will need to be sure that your dd does feel able to tell you.
You may well already have thought of this, of course, in which case I apologise! I hope you get it sorted out very soon.