How would you deal with it?

[SofiaAmes]

We were at a farm to day and while I was distracted with dd, dh was looking after ds (almost 3). Next thing I know, ds is sobbing hysterically and dh is furious. It seems that another child pushed ds over (hard enough to hurt him) because he didn't want ds to play with the puzzle exhibit he was playing with (it's an oversized thing normally played with by 2 or 3 children at a time). This child's parents were there watching him and after he pushed ds over and dh scooped him up, they glared at dh and flanked their child in such a way that no one could come anywhere near this puzzle exhibit. Not a word of apology was given to dh or ds. Dh wanted to go up to them and give them a piece of his mind. I managed to convince him not to. Later I saw the parents with this child and he actually seemed to have some problems (autistic maybe?). Dh's reasoning was that regardless of the child's problems, they should have apologized to ds. I agree with him, but wouldn't go so far as to confront a stranger with their rudeness. Dh thinks that I should have let him say something and thinks that by not confronting those parents I am "letting" ds be bullied.

I wouldn't worry about it - it's more important what you say to your ds about it - explaining what happened, and that the other child shouldn't have pushed him, but that sometimes some children don't understand this. Dh and I both want our kids to feel able to stand up for themselves, but to be generous as well.

The parents may well have been embarrassed at what happened. If it were a child your ds was going to see again or regularly I think it would be different, but in this situation I wouldn't worry too much.

oh god dunno. Ds1 doesn't really bat people or push them, unless they're in the way of a door or something in which case he just acts as if he's not there. if he did I would mouth a quick apology -a "sorry he's autistic" to the parent. I wouldn't apologise to a young child, and I couldn't make ds1 apologise to a young child (becuase he can't talk and would refuseto make eye contact with a child anyway). Also tbh if I'd had a totally crap day (and often days out are) where we'd been stared at and god know what for however long I may not bother. Seems a bit strange that the parents glared at dh though- are you sure it wasn't a more even exhange of views between the 2 kids (with your ds coming off worse).

TBH though if he is a child who pushes anyone who comes near the parents may have wanted to block off the equipment so that he couldn't push anyone else.

And again I seemt o say this a lot, but I don't really count a shove as bullying even if someone gets hurt. Its a normal part of being a young child (and I say this as the mother of a child who gets shoved all the time). Unless its someone you see all the time its much better just to ignore it. I doubt your son will remember it.

My parents took ds1 out last weekend and he sorted out another child. There were a bunch of cotages to play on and one little boy was standing in one refusing to let any other children in. Every time a child went up to the door he said "this is mine go away". Well obviously ds1 ignored him, oushed his way in anyway and stod inside looking around and humming. The little boy looked a bit surprised then said "oh ok you can play if you want to - do you want to play with me". At which point Ds1 marched straight out. The boy was gutted and said to dad really imploringly "do you want to play with me". Serves him right His dad was laughing as well.

I think you do what you feel is right in these circumstances, however I probably would have reacted like your DH and given the parents a piece of my mind.

When I was 13 I was set upon by 4 girls who were in a gang at my school and my arm was broken. I overhead my uncle advising my mum to report it to the police - she didn't and I must admit I felt let down by the lack of action taken...

Hi sofiaAmes tbh I would of acted like your dh and said something to the parents. I think the parents were very rude not to offer an apology or at the least a nod of acknowledgement instead they hog the equipment which seems childish to me. No wonder your dh was annoyed.
I wouldnt say you are "letting" your ds be bullied but as parents we should show a child that people cant get away with that sort of behaviour.

I think 13 and being set upon by a gang is different from a couple fo 3 year olds pushing each other though. Surely?

Actually this raises an interesting question for me. I have no idea whehter there was anything wrong with the boy and obviously didn't see what happened so it could be completely irrelevent to your case.

However I used to find quite often when out that ds1 would do something and I would find myself reacting in a way that was inappropriate for him just becuase I knew it was expected. Say for examle he pushed a child I would say "say sorry" knowing that a) he can't, b)he doesn't understand any concept of sorry at all and c)he wouldn't learn anything from it anyway. Now I try to react in a way that is appropriate for him even if other people start tutting. So for exampe if he was so focussed on a door that he barged past another child I may say "looking" or something of that sort to make him aware that another child was in his vicinity. Having said that if he hurt another child I would say "sorry he's autistic" at the very least to the parents. If they were open I would talk more, but if I was getting aggressive vibes I wouldn't, although I suppose if I was feeling brave I would ideally shove a explanation card in their hand.

End of the ramble, but nowadays I do respond in an unusaul way to some of ds1's behaviours, but mainly becuase I'm more interested in him learning from the experience that satisfying a stranger.

On one hand I'd be pissed off to be glared it if my son was pushed over, but on the other hand I don't think three year olds can be bullies (though they can certainly be aggressive).
It sounds as if the parents behaved oddly, but who knows what was going through their mind? I'd always apologise briefly to the other parents if ds hit out at another child but I don't think it matters if you just ignore it. I think men are much more inclined to think like your dh - I suspect mine might feel the same, but I agree with you. Best left and forgotten about. I might, however, have felt a bit childish and said something like, "did the boy push you over? That's a naughty thing to do. We don't push" within their earshot - but that's just my temperament!

Also agree with Jimjams re the making a big show for the sake of other people - I think we've discussed it before, haven't we? There was a period when I got fed up with taking him to toddler group because every time he did something normal, eg taking something from another child (not aggressively and not upsetting the other child) I would feel obliged to make a big noise to show I'd seen it and felt I was always on ds's back, which didn't benefit anyone IMO.

Actually Jimjams whilst clearly the situation is different (durrr - really?), I think the principle is the same.

I think I'd have been crosser at their blocking of the exhibit! Maybe that says something about me...I agree about pushing not being a huge deal but I think I might have said something to my ds like "well, maybe he's not old enough to understand that pushing isn't nice but anyway, this xyz is for everyone to play with isn't it?" while smiling at the parents. I do think they should have offered a brief apology, as jimjams says she would, but it's hard to say if you didn't actually see what happened. I find it very hard to tell any child off if I didn't see it because you never really know what happened. So I do think they were out of order to an extent but I think it's hard to say more without being there. You probably did the right thing by being non confrontational, mostly it's not worth it!

No I don't agree. I'm woith aloha- a three year old pushing another is normal behaviour so whilst I think it odd that the parents didn't say anything I don't think it is a big deal. Also I don;t think it is something a 3 year old will remember. However a 13 year old having their arm broken is totally abnormal behaviour, and requires a completely different response.

Anway to answer your original question- what would I have done? I would have eyed up the kid. If he was a brat I would have just taken my children away and played with something else whilst bristling a bit. If my autism radar had been going off I would have eyed up the parents- if they were eyeing up ds1 then I would guess they were fairly "aware" and would probably have started a chat and had a discussion about the difficulties of going out in public. If they were unaware then I would have taken kids away and played elsewhere. Actually this is total fantasy as the chance of ds1 playing with anything like that is a big fat zero

I suspect that few of us remember incidents from when we are three, but apparently experiences at this age, although not actively recalled,do impact upon our personality and pysche.

I don't think the act of pushing over is a big deal, but I think that the parents failure to gently reprimand their child is. If I were the 'injured parties' mum I would want my child to observe me raising this (non aggressively)with the other parents - so that my child felt backed up and supported by mum. And I do think its possible for a three year old to feel 'let down' if this doesn't happen.

However I am not criticising how SofiaAmes dealt with this situation - Sofia, you were there and most equipped to judge the best course of action. Also maybe by not making a fuss you successfully downplayed the situation and ds 'got over it' more quickly as a result...

I agree with SofiaAmes as I would have walked away from the exhibit with ds saying we will come back to it later. I would explain to ds that it was wrong for the other child to push him and that some grown-ups don't have very good manners. I definitely would not have spoken to the adults as life is too short for me to try to teach other adults manners. My only concern would be to explain right and wrong to ds and make him feel better.

Yes but lilysmum- Sofia has mentioned that she suspected the child may be autistic in which case you may as well gently reprimand the cat. I thought it could be an explanation for the parent's behaviour. I know that my response to situations sometimes differs from that expected by normal parents (although as I have said I would apologise myself and hope that was enough).

I've snipped the following from a previous thread (no-one in their right mind wants to go near the cicumcision yes or no thread again ) Sofia has mentioned that she thought the child could have problems and hopefully the following will summarise why I think sofia was right to ignore it. In a short breif meeting you can't really be aware of what is going on which is why I think it is best to generally ignore these things, deal with your child and leave the parents alone. And whilst I can understand whay comments are made they are still a bit annoying (which is why in Sofia's case I personally woudl have made a comment to the parents). However something else has occured to me- I probably wouldn't have made a coment pre-diagnosis (as dh would have gone mad- he still can't say autistic to starngers).

Anyway here goes:

"Picture the scene. You've taken your dd/ds to a miniature pony farm for the day. On the way in you notice a boy- about 3- who appears to be studying the gift shop door handle quite intently. He's kind of in the way of your buggy, but his mother just moves him physically slightly so you can get past. As you move your buggy past he tries to grab it. His mother just says "come away" and he lets go and returns to the door handle. Still his parents just watch him. Then you hear his mother say "come on lets look at the gee gees" and try to walk away with him- he runs back to the door absolutely screaming. Next the father picks him up and says "gee gees gee gees" and tries to carry him away from the door- he tried to headbutt the father and starts slapping him. Still he isn't told off. You look agaoin after about 10 minutes and he's still there. Soon you have to walk that way again and you hear the mother say "oh look slide" - the boy starts to run- straight for your child- the parent's don't say anything and he swerves out of the way and doesn't hit your child- bit scary though. For the next half hour or so you see him on the slide. Later you see him by the pony trecking - the helper tries to put a hat on him and he starts screaming and hitting his mother. The mother says a few things to the helper, she nods and he gets on the pony without a hat. Later you see the family eating lunch on a picnic table. The little boy won't sit down and appears to be eating crap- plain crisps, raisins and not much else. He has some strange looking jam snadwhiches- they look very dry, but he ignores those. Meanwhile the parents are tucking into - very nice looking helathy sandwiches. They don't oferf the child any.

So what's your verdict? Spoiled child? Terrible parenting? Talking to him in baby langauge (gee gee)? Letting him get away with it? He;s got them wrapped around his little finger?

Well no- that child was my ds1- apart from the lunch- we don't do lunch in public places unless it's an absolute necessity.

That child is autistic- he finds strange places stressfull and when he's stressed he glues himself to doors. There's no point trying to pull him away as he'll headbutt the concrete. He grabs passing buggies as he's fascinated by them- he does let go when told to though. His language is very delayed (he can say gee gee - he can't say horse). Like many autistic children he can't look and listen- so if I shouted "watch out" as he ran towards your child he would be more likely to bump into him. Again like many autistics he uses peripheral vision a lot which is why he looks as if he's running toward someone- I know he won't hit them. He has extreme tactile sensitivity and just cannot wear hats- we're working on reducing this - not there yet though. And I haven't even gone into the grass issues or the swing issues or whatever other nightmares we have when we try to have a day out. Oh and the apalling lunch and not sitting down- won't sit down as he's in a new place. Has a very very limited diet (I think he eats 10 different things- which isn't actually too limited for autism) and is gluten free - his diet is just about balanced and to be honest I have far bigger things to worry about.

Totally agree that if the child is autistic then its not helpful for the parents to reprimand him. But as you say yourself, if this happened to you, then you would offer an apology to the parents of the child who was pushed over...and yet the parents in this scenario failed to do this. I still think that's worth a word in their shell like.

I also think that Cam has misinterpreted...if I said something to the other parents my motive wouldn't be to teach them manners (that might be a lost cause), but to show my 3 year old that I am supporting them, since I believe that 3 year olds are capable of feeling the injustice in a situation.

I haven't misinterpreted Lilysmum, I just think I can show the necessary support to a 3 year old without having to deal with the other adults. My bit about teaching them manners was sort of sarcastic as if they had any manners I wouldn't need to be speaking to them.

I also said if I was having a really shitty day I might not have said anything. Or I may not have had the energy. I don;t always. Sometimes when people approach us and start saying something to ds1 I don;t have the energy to explain. I also said that pre-diagnosis I wouldn't have said anything (and if the child was 3 he may well have not been diagnosed). Not becuase I wouldn't have been horrified but becuase I wouldn't have known what to say.

Sometimes I do feel like buying a baner saying "he is autistic leave us alone and please stop tut tutting or muttering", but instead I just grow another layer of thick skin.

Out of interest what would you expect the parents to do after you had had a word?

I'm not justifying the parent's behaviour, I'm just trying to say that if Sofia was right and he was autistic it may well have been an explanation for their slightly odd behaviour. Especially if the parent's are at the stage where they know somethings wrong but are praying to any god they happen to believe in that it isn't autism,

I don't think the push was an example of bullying. I agree with aloha and jimjams on this.

I do think the parent's attitude was a bit casual, but you don't know the full story, the boy might have had problems or the parents might have had an off day or just finished a private argument. I have not apologised when I should sometimes. It happens. SofiaAmes, as long as your son feels you knew the push was wrong then no great harm has been done, IMO.

But I absolutely loathe, hate and detest being glared at by parents for no real reason that I can see. There's no mistaking it, IME, when it happens. Do you think it was this that made your dh really angry? I also think it was wrong of the parents to block the exhibit without an explanation, if it clearly was for 2 or 3 children.

Ah, but would your three year old agree?

Anyway I'm off now. I know when I'm beaten!!! its not much fun being in a minority of one!

I did say that was my last word but just to finish, as I have been indirectly labelled judgemental and its been implied that I am naive, I've decided that mumsnet is not for me. I'm returning to friendlier pastures (another website)

Lilysmum- I'm not sure where the naive bit comes from- but I think batters line about being judgmental is probably more to signal to me that she recognises the difficulties parents have with autism. I have spent about 6 months on here talking about the muttering and judging and difficulties I face every time I step outside my front door (as does any other mother with an auti child). I do get judged every time I go to the supermarket and batters knows that- I think she was just saying she does now recognise that some children who appear to be behaving badly may not be. I don't think the comment was aimed at you.

I think this sounds like normal behaviour for a 3 year-old. If it was my child I would say something to him, and then make sure the "victim" was allright. I wouldn't make a big thing of it though. I think some parents do make a massive drama out of these little episodes and I find it quiet tedious.
If the child was autistic like you expect, I still think the parents should just have said something like "oh sorry, is he allright?". I wouldn't expect anyone to go into full explanation of child's diagnosis and fully understand that they would deal with their child differently in that case.

Blimey Lilysmum, nobody has attacked you or said anything remotely nasty to you, but most people happened to simply disagree with you on a relatively minor point. I really don't see what's upset you. Nobody's called you either naive or judgemental! You simply happen to have a different opinion.