advice on 'confronting' my cleaner/mothers help

[monkey]

I'm useless at confrontations, but need to raise disasatisfaction with my cleaner/mothers help, and would appreciate ideas on how to go about it. I employed her to help me out, as I do 99% of all household duties (cleaning, shopping, cooking, bills, childcare, car maintenance, the lot) as dh works long hours and is away at times. I'm due mid November & thought I'd get her to start now to check she fitted in & to help me when I get more pg & tired, and so the boys could get used to her well in advance of the birth.

She started about a month ago. In many ways she's great - no personality clash, she's nice to my boys & they seem happy with her. She's very flexible - she will clean, do the gardening, look after the kids, take them to playgroup etc. I'm happy enough with most aspects.

But the one problem is with the housework she is so slow, seems to be a bit selective & not terribly thorough. I aksed her to do an hour's ironing & she only did 3 shirts and maybe half a dozen toddler clothes & a couple of adult t-shirts. I think I can do nearly double that in an hour. Most days she's done housework I've thought she didn't get that much done (for this reason, I've tended to get her to tackle our jungle-garden)
Yesterday I was out & left a note for her to (in 2 hours)

1. hoover & clean (mop) front room & kitchen
2. hoover & clean (mop) toy room
3. clean bathroom & hoover bedrooms.

When I cam back she'd done 1 & 3, & not even touched 2. But she'd literally just hoovered & mopped, she hadn't wiped down the (filthy) window sills, or pile the papers up so at leats it looked tidy). I reckopn I could do 1& 3 in absolute max 1.5 hours. I really don't think it was too much do do in the time, and I was really p'd off that she skipped 2 altogether, as the floor is really dirty.

So, how do I tackle her 7 tell her I'm not happy at the speed she's working? Do I ask her to work quicker? Do I just say I'm disappointed she didn't get it all done, do I actually hint that if she doesn't speed up I'll get rid of her?

and that's the other thing, would it be better to put up with this, at least until i'm on my feet with the baby? or get rid of her quickly & get someone else & hope they're better? (I'm due in 10 weeks so not got too much time) Or am I being totally unreasonable & do you think it sounds like she's doing ok? I guess I'm just not comfortable with a cleaner. otherwise, esp. in garden she's great, but summer is ending, and I'm going to have less need for her in the garden & much more need for help in the house. She's coming tomorrow & I'm dreading talking to her about it.

hi, if this is p***g you off now, how do you think you will feel as your pregnancy progresses and you are more tired, let alone when the baby arrives? my guess is, you will only get more and more fed up with this situation, yet feel less and less energy to confront it as time goes on...

fwiw, i expect a thorough job done on our house in four hours. that includes thorough cleaning of kitchen, bathroom, 2 bedrooms, hall & landing and living room - by thorough i mean including things like windowsills, skirting boards, mopping floors. our cleaner is very good and usually manages this plus a couple of extra things besides such as folding dried laundry, hanging up things in the machine.

i recommend dealing with this asap. i would write out quite a detailed list of things you expect to be done in each room - if you really want to be anal (i am!) you could estimate the amount of time per room and state it as well. then sit down with her and discuss. are you clear in your own mind whether thoroughness or speed is your priority (of course in the ideal world it would be both!) - i mention this because if you decide to keep her on it could mean sacrificing one or the other, e.g. could you live with a thorough job done if it took one hour longer? IME, it pays to be upfront about this, it only gets harder to deal with if you leave it.

if i were you, i would prepare myself for the worst - a cleaner i have been unhappy with from the outset (or from an early stage anyway) has never improved, only got worse. from what i have seen, you will either be on the same wavelength about what constitutes a thorough, speedy job or you won't, so i would start looking for a replacement now.

sorry if this is rather doom laden, but i hope it helps

bk - will you please come round and sort out my cleaner for me?

I find that, because everyone has different standards of what clean means, I have to be really specific when I leave instructions for my 2 mother's helps (I have 2, each working part weeks, to help until I get out of this wheelchair). So instead of saying "please clean bathroom" I say "please wipe out bath and wash-basin, give the loo a good scrub (use domestos loo cleaner), put in fresh towels and vac the carpet".

It might all seem obvious to you, but not necessarily to her, especially if she hasn't raised a family of her own.

Also, spend some time working alongside her, to show her your rate of work. Get her to do the heavy stuff while you do the easy bits, but make encouraging comments to speed things along.

I always try to explain how I want a job done, and point out what is really important to me, so I say "I really NEED this doing today, I know it seems alot at once but I'd appreciate you getting it all done"

Employing someone is always difficult, but you need to be assertive without being aggressive. I don't think threatening to sack her is very motivating, you might find she just thinks "stuff it", and either leaves, or just does less until you do sack her.
I try to remember to thank for every job done. If it's not done right, next time you ask her to do it, say "and will you make sure to ..... Please" with a smile.

I used to dread my cleaner, who never seemed to do things as I wanted. But I took a deep breath, fixed a smile on my face, and started to explain each job, until she got the hang of what I wanted. If she doesn't want to do it right after 2- 3 weeks, then look for someone else, but as she's good with the kids, I'd give her chance first.

i agree with the points easy makes - but i really wouldn't leave it longer than 2/3 weeks to see an improvement...

prufrock, i have learned the hard way!

mmm..I've had cleaners for about 12 years now But I'm no expert and have had my fair share of "cleaner problems".

I am always careful never to ask them to do something in a time frame that I couldn't do myself.

If I'm honest, that sounded quite a list you left, but I don't know the size of your house. When you said Hoover and clean (mop) front room and kitchen did you mean her to wipe down kitchen surfaces/sink, dust tables, window sils etc in the front room?
Also, was the house tidy ( ish) before she started or did she have to tidy first. I always ensure that the house is tidyish first before the cleaner comes because otherwise she cannot clean sufficiently well in her allotted time if she has to spend some of that clearing the floor, tables etc as well before she can even start waving her mop and polish around
To be honest, if you did mean her to do as I've suggested above then I do think that you were asking too much. If, on the other hand, the house was reasonably tidy and you did just mean her to hoover around bedrooms, kitchen, frontroom, toy room and clean bathroom then I do not think you were asking too much....

I understand the temptation to put up with what you think is sub-standard help because of your pregnancy - I too have done that, but you may end up resenting it and her because after all she is costing you your hard earned cash!.
Also, if she thinks she can get away with it she may well carry on ( sorry if I sound cynical, but I've had all sorts of cleaners - From total gems to those that were breaking the trade descriptions ads calling themselves cleaners!!) - I'd take a deep breath and have a "chat" with her on a friendly basis first... Good luck and let me know how you get on!!

I agree with Easy and BK - I too have had detailed lists and conversations about what I expect to be done and how!!

ps: How come we've all had dire experiences with cleaners!!...

Hi monkey. I really have no idea about how fast someone should be expected to clean- I personally would really struggle to complete six or seven rooms in 2 hours but then again I'm not employed to clean- but I do wonder if you need to think about her role in the round a bit more. Are you employing her mainly as a cleaner or is the childcare aspect just as or more important? It is probably quite hard to find a real all-rounder so maybe you need to have a good think about what bits are the most important. It sounds like you've found someone who is pleasant and flexible with good childcare skills and slightly less good cleaning skills- she fits the description of a very good mother's help but possibly not a brilliant cleaner, I'd say. If a mother's help is what you want then hang on to her for all you are worth; if you really want a cleaner then you may need to find another person. Either way, I agree with BK and easy that you should be as clear as possible about what you expect her to do and what your standards are. Hope it works out.

I agree with scummy. if I was employed as a mothers help I wouldn't expect to be doing loads of cleaning- and I suspect I would assume I would be helping clean rather than doing all the cleaning myself iyswim. I think I would be expecting to do things like make the lunch/tea for the children, look after them a bit while you did errands, a bit of cleaning, but definitelty with the emphasis on other things.

I have a cleaner for 3 hours a week. In that time she hoovers the whole house (4 beds and lots of stairs), mops the kitchen floor and usually one of the bathroom floors. I'm not very tidy so she tends to do most piling as well. She cleans the kitchen as well. And we normally have two cups of tea and a couple of chats in that time. She also looks after ds2 while I pick up ds1 and makes ds2 a bit of lunch if he wakes up. She doesn't do much dusting or window cleaning or anything, and tbh I wouldn't expect her to in the time available. Occasionaly she does some ironing, but it is quite a slow process- she doesn't get much done in an hour (but nor do I).

Decide on your priorites- mine is hoovering as we can't hoover when ds1 is in the house- so as long as that gets done I don't worry too much. If your priorty is cleaning then you might be better off getting a cleaner rather than mothers help.

That is a good point, Summy & most of you had made sensible points. I guess I need mostly help with the cleaning & garden, but having someone to help with the boys if/when nec. is a big bonus - eg I had a midwives appointment last week & she took one to playgroup & mnded the other. If she couldn't have done that, I would have been late for the appt & had to bring one of them with me (not too bad, but better alone).

There is an organisation here for new mums & other people temporarily in need of help who list thier jobs they will help with & these include shopping, cleaning, childminding. She did used to work for this organisation & she currently works as a cleaner for other people, so while it sounds broad, I don't think it's out of the normal range for her. I also met her before she started & discussed what she would/wouldn't do, what she was happy to do etc. I could just go with this organisation, but then I can't be guaranteed the same person every time, so I didn't think it would be as good for the boys.

I did, for my sins, tackle the jobs I asked her to do yesterday, myself this afternoon. i made sure I was really thorough, more so than I would expect from her, eg hoovering cob webs off the ceiling, I also cleaned the window sills & the downstairs sink & loo which she hadn't done, & getting on my hands & knees to get at stubborn stains, again, I wouldn't expect this level of detail. But 2 things I noticed - 1st the water was black, and it had only been 1 day since she mopped the floor, 2nd even with taking this extra time I still had about half an hour spare, so I just can't understand how she can get so little done.

I have to say something, but just not sure how to raise it - I'm surprised how little you've done, what can we do to speed it up/ - I'm really happy with all these other aspects, but you're just miles too slow/ - I'm not happy, sort it out. Oh well, she's here 1st thing, so I don't have too long to stress about it.

i will use some of your ideas about being much moe specific, suggesting time-guidlens for jobs (my mum said I shouldn't do this, but I'll defy her on your advice!). Thanks for your ideas. Sorry I'm so long-winded

Monkey if its any help my cleaner cleans my 5 bed rommed house form top to bottom (hover mop dust 3 bathrooms) and does a full basket of ironong in 4 hours

Blimey, carriemac can I borrow her? Does she wear athletic strip to come to work?

As far as thoroughness goes I don't think you will be able to get her to improve. My cleaner is OK but not very thorough - I just know that once in a while I have to do the thorough bits. The thing that does annoy me is that she won't use the products that I know work; ie she uses lots of bleach down the loo but no limescale remover = germs gone (OK good) but limescale marks still there - and you can only tell someone a couple of times without spoiling the relationship. Timing - well in 3 hours she does - mops kitchen floor (and cleans sides although strictly speaking this isn't usually necessary as it's usually been done by me); mops conservatory floor; cleans 2 bathrooms and 1 cloakroom (not particularly thoroughly ie limescale remains) does a small amount of tidying in kids rooms (2) and hoovers and dusts (not including ceiling and skirting board) all rooms (9). I don't think she does a particularly good job but the house does look clean and tidy when she has finished (exc. the bits of limescale and dust and skirting board and ceiling level). She also does 3 - 4 hours ironing a week which covers all my ironing for 2 adults and 4 children. I don't think I could iron that fast.

In my experience some people are just good at cleaning and some are not. I would suggest that when you employ someone in future maybe it would be best to steer away from job titles like 'mothers' help', if the brief doesn't exactly fit the duties you have in mind. Perhaps you could say 'Someone to clean and do a bit of babysitting' and then if you are lucky someone suitable will apply.

I've had quite a few au pairs and have learnt through trial and error to clean with them the first few times. That way they learn your standards rather than go with what they think is okay. I know it's tough when you're pregnant to have to do the cleaning but make the effort once with her to make sure she knows what's what. I'll be in the same boat when my new au pair arrives next week by which time I'll be nearly 38 weeks gone. I also write a fairly comprehensive list of what I expect them to achieve in a week. And then after they've been here a week or so I ask them to tell me if they think it's a reasonable request to do all that. After chatting with other au pairs at language school they normally think I'm pretty fair. ALTERNATIVELY why don't you do the cleaning you can manage, ie. dusting. sink washing etc and get your mother's help to do the mopping and vacuuming and bending and lifting jobs. I know our situations are slightly different but hope this helps. Good Luck

3 to 4 hours ironing a week! Blimey Jude thats a lot. How much do you wear?!!
I reckon I may do 2 hours at apush for a family of 5. No sheets mind.

Wow. I do about .5 hours per month ironing. I just buy things that don't need ironing.

hmmm - do you think that's a lot - I thought it was quite reasonable because I know if I sit down with it it'll take me two evenings at least. I suppose there is quite a lot - 5 shirts for dh - NOT easy-iron ones 100% cotton - I refused to iron them any more as they're so difficult - lots of stuff for children - although at least at the moment they're all toilet-trained or in nappies so no extras. But 1 set of clothes a day for 4 kids plus lots of pyjamas as 2 of them wet the beds frequently (but that's another thread). That's about it really - don't iron the sheets either. What am I doing wrong?

Couldn't tell you how many hours ironing we have per week - 2 adult & 2 children, as it's currently all in an over-flowing basket waiting for me & sending me guilty vibes. She's coming in 10 minutes! Wish me luck.

Monkey, IMO your cleaner doesn't seem especially slow at cleaning or at ironing. I agree with what everyone else said though about writing a detailed list of jobs for each room and a detailed time budget, then giving it a trial period. Also showing her how you do it makes sense!
Good luck!

Thanks everyone, She turned up, i tried not to get nervous. Anyway, the 1st thing she said, after the usual pleasantries, was about not getting everything done last time, so it was the perfect intrfoduction, so I just suggested we look at it together & it developed into a long talk about each task & how long to spend & we worked out a system - eg 1st n means do the 1st floor 'normally' (wrote out a list of things to cover & things to leave) and 1st G means do the 1st floor thoroughly, again a list of tasks to cover & time guidline & I've got a copy of it & she has.
I also asked her if she was happy thus far with the balance of house/garden/kiddie care & she said she was very happy with it.

So it wasn't a strained or difficult discussion in the end, so hopefully next week we'll see how it goes & hopefully this will be sorted. thanks a lot for all your ideas & suggestions, it really helped me with my little talk. It also made me realise that I do really like her, so prefer to work it out rather than ditch her, and you all made me see that - when I 1st wrote I was too nervous about the 'confrontation' and too cross about the stuff not being done, so you've been a big help. Let's hope this has sorted it.

Hi everyone. This is along the same sort of lines and I am hoping someone can help. Both DH and I work full time and use a mixture of childcare, a registered childminder and a babysitter. The babysitter picks DS2 up from the registered childminder at 3.00 and DS1 up from nursery at the local primary at 3.15. The deal was always that she would then bring them home, perhaps with a detour via the local park. This arrangement has stood for 18 months and to start with worked really well. However, gradually she started taking them back to her house instead of mine once or twice a week and feeding them there and not bring them home until 6pm, but now it is practically every night. DS1 has been upset about this as he wants to come to his house. I do not want her to look after the boys at her house for a number of reasons: it is not their house, she smokes in her house with them (I do not allow it), she is not a registered childminder and therefore not insured (and I would rather the childminder had them after school if I can not find someone informally to pick them up and bring them home) everything they need is at our house and at the end of the day it is what I want and what we agreed in the first place!

I have spoken to her about this a number of times and thought we had sorted things out however, last night, the first night of school she took them to her house! I was at work and found out when I rang her about something. She said DS1 had asked to go to her house but when I asked him later he said he had not said that. I find it very difficult to confront people so did not make a big deal about it at the time, but I did not sleep last night over all this. I am going to have to say something tonight as I can not carry on like this. All I want is for her to pick them up and bring them home and either I am not being clear about it or she knows what I want but thinks she can still do what she wants. I like her and am surprised at her behaviour as I did not think she was like that. Any ideas anyone as to how to tell her nicely but firmly that if she does not want to pick them up and bring them home then the deal is off? She is also my cleaner by the way!! I am off to a meeting now but will check in later this afternoon to see what your advice it. TIA.

That sounds terrible luchar!!! I'd freak out if someone did that to me. If I were you I would tell her frankly but in a nice tone that you want the kids brought straight home from school (unless they go to the park etc) and that it HAS to be your home. You can explain that then you know exactly where they are and that it's protecting her because if anything bad happens she's only been doing exactly what you told her and so there'd be no question of her having done something wrong.

I would sort it out as soon as humanly possible though, and don't accept anything less than what you've asked for. Doing slightly less work than you've asked someone to do can be tolerated IMO, but completely ignoring your wishes about your own children is not good enough. If she leaves or your relationship with her goes bad, that's just her fault.

You could try and find out if there's a specific reason she wants them at her house but it doesn't sound like there's a good one. And if she tries to tell you your ds wanted to go, just tell her she should be adult enough to do what you've asked for, not what a child asks for.

If she reacts nastily, remember that if she takes your kids to somewhere other than you've agreed and somewhere that you've already told her NOT to take them, it's legally kidnapping.

luchar,

wobblymum's strategy sounds good. I cannot think why she would want to take them to her house, although I suppose it enables her to do her own domestic things but on your time! If you are paying her then she should do as you ask and IME kids want to play with their own toys in their own space after a day at school/minder.

Hope you can work it out