A rant about the sexist men I work with. Any advice welcome

[InvisibleWoman]

I've recently moved offices (same job, new office) and from sharing with two others, am not in an open plan office with 10 others. The other 10 are all men of a certain age, primarily ex military, who never seem to have worked with women before. Every day this week they have:

got coffees in for everyone else but me

asked everyone but me if they want to go to lunch

not introduced me (and only me) at an important
meeting, so I had to introduce myself and felt like a right divvy

told really nasty sexist jokes loudly in the office (eg why did the woman have two black eyes? She had to be told twice)

And today when the photocopier jammed when I was using it, one commented really loudly, "You should never trust women with cars or modern technology. They crash one and can't cope with the other without buggering the whole thing up." And they all collapsed laughing.

I said to this last that such comments didn't particularly bother me, but they should be careful making them in front of the other woman we work with as she almost certainly wouldn't appreciate them, and such remarks could get them into trouble To which I was told to "Get a life and a sense of humour."

The other woman is more senior than them, but she seems terrified of them, lets them walk all over her and is unlikely to back me up in any complaint. Any suggestions of how to handle them? The office where I work is 99.9% male, they see women as wives/mothers or secretaries and cannot cope with career women, so making complaints higher up the chain is unlikely to help.

Perhaps some jokes about small men might help in retaliation, or should I not bring myself down to their level?

I didn't say she was over-reacting did I. I don't walk in her shoes - I am speaking of my experience - I don't wish to trivialise anything - I am offering another slant on the situation

Disgusting abhorent behaviour but I think that going down the disciplinary complaint route is too early because once you do that these sexist pigs will feel justified in their bullying and there will be no resort except leaving (hopefully with a big pay out for sex discrimination under your belt.) Even a dignified silence or reasonable request for a bit of fair treatment will make them think you are pompous (from their point of view -not mine!)

Look - us girls are just better at this whole relationship / communication stuff than them. Use those feminine wiles (not in a sexual way just in a clever way.)
If you want to keep the job go for the subtle methods. Most of these guys are probably OK on their own. I'd swallow my pride and behave in a friendly way to the least awful one or two whenever you can get them on their own (e.g. offer them a coffee if you're making and chat). Make them think of you as a friend and then they will be too ashamed to behave quite so badly. With time you might even be able to get them to treat you as one of the lads (not exactly ideal I know, but it sounds about all these pr*cks are capable of). The others will follow in time. Better still if you can get the alpha males on side with a bit of banter (to show you have a sense of humour) and a bit of friendly chat (to show that you are not a scary alien who is threatening their masculine pride) the others will be meek as sheep. Good luck!

"Aren't we taking all this a bit too seriously?"

According to this we are all over-reacting to her situation!

Being able to give cutting remarks back isn't always the solution/end to the problem.

She may be a sensative person who takes these comments to heart & who really worries about these type of things. We can all put on a brave face but underneath these comments could be tearing her life apart.

Most peoples reaction has been either 'pack the job in' or start logging all the jokes and take it to the top. I think invisible woman should maybe try to diffuse the situation and yes, if that means with a few sharp jokes back, all well adn good.
It might mean she doesn't have to leave a job she likes or not put herself through a sexual discrimination case. Just my opinion, FWIW

helliebean, that's fair enough, but you previously said that a lack of the 'black eyes' joke in the workplace leaves it 'sanitised' and i'm afraid i absolutely can't agree with you.

"Aren't we taking all this a bit too seriously?"

I think this sort of behaviour shoud be taken very seriously. It's not lighthearted, it's extremely nasty. I know - I've been there.

Sounds like bullying to me.

I DID NOT say a lack of black eyed jokes left the workplace sanitised.
You are picking bits out of different convos. I said the black eye joke was over the top. In ANOTHER convo I talked of the workplace becoming sanitised. It is not fair to take extracts from different threads and put them together.

ok fair enough! i misunderstood you.

thats OK - I know where you are coming from. I am just trying to put a different slant on the whole thing.
Men group together in the workplace and bolster each other up - if you can split them up a bit, make friends with the nicer ones, cut down to size the ringleaders with a few funny cutting remarks, I think invisble woman will avoid leaving a job she loves. Why should she leave and why should she have to put herself through the ordeal of taking it further?

Helliebean - You're still implying that alot of this could be solved if she were just 'sharp' enough!

I've been there.... and I understand. If you haven't been there you can still offer a valid, differing opinion.... but you're not. You're effectively saying that women over react!

I have gone home crying coz I guy at my work thought it was funny to keep coming up to me and wobbling the flab on my upper-arms. No amount of 'cutting remarks' can take away that kind of humiliation..... and this is humiliation and bullying.

if you scroll down you'll see i said the same: if she can find one ally, that may help a lot....

i just think it's crap that anyone has to deal with this in the 21st century, and even crapper that unless you want have yourself branded a trouble maker or take legal action you really aren't left much recourse. i think all companies like all schools should have a bullying policy.

I agree with custardo, give back what you get.

A withering look and a raised eyebrow, rolling eyes, a 'yeah right' said extremely sarcastically.

I have used these to good effect in the past.

I wouldn't get bothered by the coffee/lunch thing, joke isn't funny and the rest I would put down as office banter (photocopier etc).

Tootache, I have been there. I worked in an office with 15 sharp salesmen. What worked for me was giving as good as I got - I really don't want invisble woman thinking that I think she isn't "sharp" enough. Those are your words, not mine.
She is asking if she should try a few jokes in her original question and all I have said is "yes" try it. It might work - now if it doesn't, she would have to look again at the situation and take stronger action.

hear hear olive oil, my sentiments exactly

Helliebean - I suppose where it is 'banter' then giving as good as you get works.... if you are quick enough and witty enough to respond there and then.

But when it gets more sinister than that.... I don't think you can give as good as you get when you are up against a pack of wolves who are bullying you!!!!!

Perhaps Invisiblewomans situation hasn't reached that stage..... but it happens and its horrendous.

totally agree toothache.

Do you use a PDA or Palm computer? Most of them have recording devices on them. I have very effectivly dealt with some workplace bullying by not going anywhere without mine. They can claim it's your word against theirs, but you have digital evidence.

As the the rudeness in front of important clients, the trick is to acknowledge the rudeness in front of the client. 'Hello my name is Invisiblewoman, the others in this group unfortunately still think women should be invisible, please forgive them for being so rude'. Most men have enough residual politeness not to make a scene in front of a client, and you will have made your point. And if you lose business as a result? Well perhaps next time they will think twice.

I don't think that the two black eyes joke is the same thing as advocating domestic violence, for heaven's sake. It's a joke in poor taste.

satine, it is VERY likely that the person who is telling this so called joke either hits his wife or would like to. People's jokes so often show how they are thinking.
I dont see a shred of humour in that "joke", tasteless or otherwise.

and the colleagues who are laughing at it will then go home thinking that domestic violence isnt really such a big deal after all.

Racist muggers get the same sort of moral support from racist jokes.

Great idea Slug - a lot of mobile phones have these voice recorders too. Worth noting if you decide to go down the complaint route IW.
It does really depend on your personality - I would go Custardo's way but that's just me - I know a lot of people wouldn't be up to that. If you are though there are plenty of great jokes/low key insults on the net...!

Nightynight I completely disagree that anyone teeling a joke in poor taste is actually racist/sexist/a wife beater. My brother-in-law regularly tells us that he's been married to his wife for 24 years and that if he'd killed her straight off he'd be out of jail by now. Do you honestly believe that he's plotting to bump her off? I think you're unfamiliar with male bravado and pack instinct. Blokes will say all sorts of things to impress their mates - but it doesn't mean that they're all evil or sick.

Im very familiar with male bravado and pack instinct Satine, and racists and wife beaters arent all evil or unusual. They are very common, just ordinary people that you find in any office.

Jokes are a well known way of introducing ideas that are unacceptable if viewed in a normal light.

where i worked it was just a couple of women and about 50 men. i had to put up with sexist banter all the time. i used to laugh it off, make sarcastic comments back etc but it didnt really help. in fact, me laughing off the sexist comments and pretending i wasnt bothered made them think it was ok to brand me a slag. i would get comments when i bent over to get things out of the filing cabinet, comments about the size of my chest and could i come into work in less clothes. i worked in an office connected to a factory and had to put up with shouts of "get your tits out" and other intelligent things every time i walked past the door. when i was pregnant i was asked about whether i would breastfeed, nudge nudge, wink wink. there were lots of things said to me, much worse than this. i quite often went home in tears but there was no point complaining to the bosses...they were just as bad! i mentioned it to my supervisor one day but she basically said you work with 50 men, thats how it is, just get on with it.

so i never made a proper complaint. this is the same company i recently took to a tribunal for sex discrimination after i was made redundant on mat leave. i had made several points in my statement to try and highlight the fact that they were sexist anyway, and one of the first things their lawyer threw at me was "so why didnt you ever complain?".

so what im saying is...you have to complain. even if you think it may have no effect, because you will probably need that evidence should it ever come to tribunal.

I don;t think you can draw conclusions about an individual's actual behaviour from the jokes they tell, But you can draw conclusinos about the pervasive, insidiuous, ideas and attitudes throughout society. can you really imagine a joke about violence against children being for one second remotely amusing? Yet (some) men - and women - find jokes about violence against women acceptable? I do think it refelcts the fact that we still have a long way to go. It really was not that long ago that violence in the home was considered a private matter, and that attitutude does stil exist.