A rant about the sexist men I work with. Any advice welcome

[InvisibleWoman]

I've recently moved offices (same job, new office) and from sharing with two others, am not in an open plan office with 10 others. The other 10 are all men of a certain age, primarily ex military, who never seem to have worked with women before. Every day this week they have:

got coffees in for everyone else but me

asked everyone but me if they want to go to lunch

not introduced me (and only me) at an important
meeting, so I had to introduce myself and felt like a right divvy

told really nasty sexist jokes loudly in the office (eg why did the woman have two black eyes? She had to be told twice)

And today when the photocopier jammed when I was using it, one commented really loudly, "You should never trust women with cars or modern technology. They crash one and can't cope with the other without buggering the whole thing up." And they all collapsed laughing.

I said to this last that such comments didn't particularly bother me, but they should be careful making them in front of the other woman we work with as she almost certainly wouldn't appreciate them, and such remarks could get them into trouble To which I was told to "Get a life and a sense of humour."

The other woman is more senior than them, but she seems terrified of them, lets them walk all over her and is unlikely to back me up in any complaint. Any suggestions of how to handle them? The office where I work is 99.9% male, they see women as wives/mothers or secretaries and cannot cope with career women, so making complaints higher up the chain is unlikely to help.

Perhaps some jokes about small men might help in retaliation, or should I not bring myself down to their level?

I've worked with some Eastern European men who can be pretty sexist (I interviewed one for a job who told me, with a completely straight face that a woman would not be capable of doing the job. The job was to have been working as my assistant! But none this bad.

when they get coffee shot - oh go on then i love to see a fella in the kitchen where they belong.

make a comment about their car - chose a sportcar and with a wink say " oh dear we all know what thats replacing dont we!"

" i love it when the air con is on in the office - i get to wear something warm and your dick shrivells - oh how endearing - get some longjohns luv - trez sexy"

"ill get my own coffee i know how hard it is for fellas to remember too much detail"

" Hello my name is xxxx i am the collegue that wasn't introduced - sorry about that we cant expect everyone to remember everything ^all of the time...nevermind"

" yes i have broken the photocopier" loud voice
either help me fix it or make a brew in the kitchen where you belong."

" what small hands you have "
" what small feet you have!"

assuming you want to get into this kind of banter. but it would be my course of action i have to admit.

when you were deliberatley left out of being introduced you could have highlighted it as a mistake

i would try the aww he tries pay on the head consescending approach.

dh's advice is as follows:

do keep a v v detailed verbatim log of everything that happens with dates, times and who did it.

do make a first complaint to put down a marker: go to the most senior person that you have access to, preferably the very top person and in a v calm and neutral way 'look, this is what is happening for example this and this: i'm sure you're aware that some of this is illegal and could result in (the company, not the individual) ending up in court?

make clear that atm you're not thinking about this, but equally it's important to put a marker down at the beginning of this in case you do need to take it further down the line.

having said all that, it turns you into a kind of spy in your own workplace.

it's v v unfair all this, but if you do want to change it you can

sophable - your dh advice is spot on - is he a lawyer or a manager?

Are any of them married? I would also try getting a couple of the least horrible and finding a time to talk to them alone (you will never get anywhere tackling them as a group, they will just show off to each other). You could say "I don't like it when you do X, Y, Z. Suppose your wife came home from work and said the men in her office were saying (pick a really sexist or sexually hassarring example here). How would you feel? Do you think it would be ok for your wife to suffer this, if not why do you think it is ok to do it to another person? If your wife came home crying would you tell her to lighten up it's just a joke?

Trying to get them to think of their own partner being upset by a similar situation may get thru to them.

Failing that, you culd try leaving pamflets about employment tribunals, sexual harassment and compensation payouts open and very visible on your desk when the boss comes past!

I also work in a predominantly male environment. I have had a few comments in my time but generally give as good as I get. My advice would be along the lines of Ginerbear & Tabitha - don't sink to their level but let them know that you are not a little girlie & prove to them that you can do your job. Agree it does sound like a pack mentality - I would try & work out who the ring leaaders are & prove yourself to them. You shouldn't have to do this in todays world but we all know it happens. personally I wouldn't go down the tribunal or threaten tribunal just yet if you really want to stay at the place.

I've just left a job like that! It was feckin awful.

In my experience it only gets worse the more you retaliate.... you start to get comments like "ooooooo must be her time of the month!" or "ooooooo don't get ratty just coz you're a woman and can't handle it".

Really awful. Its very hard to make complaints about this as it really is "all the boys stick together".

I've actually sat next to 2 guys discussing the fact they were being accused of sexual harassment. It was disgusting! They were laughing about it. And they got away with it, the woman dropped the allegations and left the company with nothing.

Her downfall was not having witnesses and not putting in complaints when the incidents happened. So if you want to persue this you need to start writing things down, whole conversations. And dating them. Also writing down who was present at the time (providing they won't lie to protect the bastards).

I was once told that I was just keeping a man out of a job! And was also told by a sleazy Estimator that "I'd be a good looking lass if I just stopped eating so much"!!!!!

I told him calmly that he had crossed the line from banter to insult and that if he ever spoke to me or about me like that again I'd fucking ruin him. He didn't talk to me again (suited me fine), but I made sure that everyone knew what a slimy git he was.

FECK! I don't mean dating the blokes!! I mean dating the conversations!! My god what a typo!

am with hatstand - document and confront!

I guess it all depends on your style...

if you were a "give as good as you get" type person you could take Custy's approach. I am minded to think that just a few comments along those lines would sort them out. Anyway, these are your colleagues and you would probably like to find a way to enjoy working with them (not that it sounds like they do that much work!).

But if you don't want to resort to witty repartee (or if it doesn't come natrually to you, I'd be lost myself), why can't you speak to your line manager? And tell them how unpleasant these guys are and ask what they advise?

Presumably if you just started the company does want to employ you and they don't want you leaving (did they pay a recruitment fee?) again already.

toothache - I like your comment about crossing the line between banter and insult. I'm very lucky in that I work in a mixed environment with a few more women than men, and one where awareness of these issues (as well as racism, homophobia and pretty much all discrimination) is very high. Anyone making comments like IW's colleagues would be lynched. Their name would be absolute muck throughout the industry. I feel so angry that there are women who have to put up with such crap.

another thought. If you make a complaint I am sure one of your fears will be that these guys will try to take subtle revenge, any action like that needs to be part of what you document - but you can also protect yourself against snide comments - they are unlikely, if they get a warning, to make snide comments infront of anyone else, so just make sure you are never alone - that's the one situation when they could make comments and it would be their word against yours. If you're in the kitchen/next to the photocopier and one of them comes in - walk off.

haven't read all responses, but i was in military for 8 years, so have slight insight which may/may not help you

i found exactly as you do - the key is that they move in packs - so what i did is "pick off" each member in subtle ways

if you are getting a coffee, ask a couple of them if they would like one too .... the aim is to get a couple on side to make it harder for them to ignore you in the coffee round

re the jokes, subtly say to one or two of them when they are not in front of their "pack" - "gee, that was a bit off - do you think they say that in front of their wive/girlfriend/mother" "gee, i haven't heard that sort of childish humour since college" "funny though that joke was, its not exactly office humour is it"

or about jokes, you could face it head on with "male type" jokes for each "female type" joke - but this can sometimes backfire

often they do this sort of behaviour because they are uncomfortable with you being there - they DONT KNOW HOW TO ACT - the military in many ways, makes men into boys - so the best way i found is to help them become comfortable, and know you as a person, and this alone makes it harder for them to treat you as an object

does this make sense?

Years ago, I worked in a Sales office and there was a lot of banter like this. Best way is to give as good as you get - if you can come out with a funny retort aimed at one of the ringleaders and get the rest to laugh, you will have won. They are just testing the water, to see your reaction - in the end I just became one of the lads and it was much more fun!
Ultimately, isn't it better to be in an office with a bit of fun banter than a boring politically correct environment. Having a bit of a laugh with a few guys in the office used to make the job fun. Aren't we taking all this a bit too seriously?

why did the woman have two black eyes? and you think people might be taking it too seriously. Would you consider a joke about paedophilia acceptable? I don't know stats on paedophilia but I do know that violence kills TWO WOMEN A WEEK in this country. why did the woman have two black eyes is way way way beyond the pale. I would not consider an environment lacking in such jokes as bland. I'd consider it a minimum standard of acceptable working environments

I really feel for you InvisibleWoman as I have worked in a similar environment (sexual harrassment, vile sexist jokes) and it was absolutely horrible - it really does wear you down and can be very upsetting.

I think it would be a good idea to document all their offensive comments and 'jokes' (two black eyes..yeah, really funny). You'll then have the evidence you need if/when you make a complaint. I know thats much easier said than done though.

Good luck and don't let these a*holes push you out of a job you enjoy.

Well, sorry I must be odd then - yes the two black eye joke is in bad taste. Just about every joke is in bad taste if you look into it closely enough. I hate seeing in the paper all these sexual discrimination cases whereby hotshot female financial trader sues for a few million because of a bit of sexual banter.
I know that comment is not going to go down well but haven't we pushed things a bit too far. A man can't even tell a female colleague she looks nice anymore for fear of sexual harrassment.

I personally wouldnt put up with "jokes" like that in front of me. It shows a lack of respect.

I'd be tempted to leave - why take all the hassle of educating these ignoramuses after all.

Helliebean - I really think you are trivialising this! There is a difference between being told you look nice and being told you would look nicer if you weren't so fat! Isn't there?

I had to endure daily rants from men shouting and balling about the fact that women should never be employed and that they should never have been given the vote.

You are not seeing the picture..... there is also a difference between having a joke with your coleagues and being the butt of every joke in the office and people getting really personal about it! Sexist or not.... that is bullying. People should not feel that they have the right to comment on your weight unless you have specifically asked about it..... or your hair, teeth, whatever!

Do you think its acceptable to be insulted daily at your work?

Helliebean - Whilst I do understand your point about that joke (which I have told in the office before !).... its not only about that joke though!

if someone told me I would look nicer if I wasn't so fat, I would come back with a retort that would cut them down to size very quickly - they wouldn't do it again. Sorry, I am a bit of a dinosaur - I just think the workplace has become totally sanitised.

IW - I am just echoing others I am afraid
definitely note the offences, go to the top but always put the company slant on it rather than individual slant - not offensive to you but could hurt the company
I wouldn't leave - it lets men like that win and normally the offensive ones are only ten years or less away from retirement anyway
I wouldnt tell man jokes, you are better than that
I would bring in a deluxe cafetiere and indulge in yummy coffee just for me and then single one or two out to join you and see if you can divide and conquer (biscuits as a standby)
Remain a shining example of a classy working lady at all times.

We certainly dont have any obligation to become "one of the lads"

Dont forget that most of those men are operating complete double standards, and wouldnt be married to "one of the lads"

Helliebean - Thats all very well saying that I have been there and have retorted cuttingly! But it just doesn't work when there is you..... and 10 men laughing at you because you are overweight! That is slightly different.... and until you have been in a situation where you have been effectively 'ganged up' on then you really shouldn't belittle what can be a very serious situation.

Helliebean, I would much rather be told I looked nice than have some-one insinuate that it is ok to hit me, as I needed telling twice!

It doesn't sound like "banter" to me.

These comments are not harmeless fun, they are making her feel uncomfortable. These men are ultimately bullying her. Why is it acceptable to have the A/C on cold so they can sit & view her boobs?

They are arrogant sexist pigs who need to be told they are out of order.

FGS, we have men comlaining that womans advertising is "anti-men" surely this is "anti-woman" we should all be helping her find a solution, rather than telling her she is over-reacting!

Sorry forgot to add, this is where slightly padded bras help as protect from obvious nipple display - since i moved to freezing office, I swear by them.