Do you think women in Britain are as free as they think they are?

[Pruni]

Message withdrawn

But it is the overall freedoms of women that are the point here tho? Otherwise we could say that the freest place in the world to be a man is the US because Bill Gates lives there and he is so rich he could do what every he wants

Wheras being a balck man in the US isn't so 'free'

Anyway I'm free to say 'Time for bed now'

Night all, this was a good discussion!

not that i know of hmb.
alcohol supposedly isnt available in saudi, i beg to differ. how would he stop you taking the pill? or using a cap? etc.
night night. nice chatting to you.

no we are not free we are chained to a capitalist system - driven by it, consumed by it (pardon the pun)as anyone without moneyu will tell you their choices are far fewer than those who have money - the choices i hasten to add look more favourable becuase they are idolised by a capitalist society. am hating the major american influence at the moment - i know its been here for ages but at the moment i see it penetrating every pore of my teenagers and detest it.

the system isnt fair its not worked out that way for instance its easier to go from job to job than from unemployment to a job - its financially harder for poorer people to go to university - never mind send 2 or 3 or 4 kids to university.

but i think the restriction in freedom and choice is down to the consumerist society rather than women being less free than men.

i for instance am not as free as some of you. some may not be as free as me - there is a thread about a mum who needs some cash to keep her home and is looking for loans - shes been turned down by banks becuase of credit rating

me too. this severely curtails your life and enjoyment there of - finances impact everyone but when your on the bones of your arse skint its harder emotionally too. sometimes shit happens - you need the money - your house gets reposessed and the bank suddenly want the 19k shortfall after the crash in the early 90's - SAY WHAT! yes....... it might even take you 11 years to get off your knees from that one. i didn't manage my money ineptly shit happened.

i have my own bank account . i have a savings account which my husband contributes to. as the ever optomistic pessimist, if he decided to go have a n affair tomorrow i will lose half of the household income. but i would remain the primary career for the children - as this would be my choice and i think that if my husband wanted to fight me on this point the courts would be in my favour not his primarily - infct solely becuase i am mum. we both have same paid jobs - amount of time to give are good parents - so on an even keel how would a judge rule? i think for me becuse i am mum. so men get some breaks women get others we are all fucked becuase america rules the industrial world and politicians are more interested in saving their balls for the next election rather than helping soiciety.

All our choices, men and women's are restricted by economics.

Just have to pick up on one point. We have this assumption in the west that we are in control of our own fertility.

But as long as bearing and rearing children restricts our ability to have a decent income, that is simply not true (and it's not true anyway for obvious reasons like infertility).

Reliable contraception and legal safe abortion have on the one hand given women a lot of control over their own bodies. On the other hand, it has also given men an awful lot of control over women's bodies.

If a man says he doesn't want a child, it is generally considered unreasonable for a woman to go ahead and have one, even if the couple are married. In some relationships in the West, men exercise a veto on women's fertility, just as in some parts of the world, they exercise a veto on her right not to have a child. In places like China and India, women are forced to abort their girl-children in favour of boys.

Just want to make the point that the technology of contraception doesn't make women free - in a patriarchal society, it can be used to re-inforce control of women. Only real choice makes us free. And real choice tends to be determined by economics.

what a strange discussion. I know a family who are living "the good life" trying to be as self sufficient as possible. The women certainly don't dress in skimpy outfits to please men they dress in what is comfortable and suitable for their work. Of course they are seen as slightly mad by a materialistic society but it is feasible for those who wish to do it.

Our choices are restricted by wishing to conform to the society we live in, to be accepted in that culture. But I am as free as anyone can hope to be and far freer than a culture that makes me depend on a man. I'm not a child to be dependant on anyone else so I don't feel it right for my husband to have an obligation to support me, or to give more support to our children than I do. If I'm incapable of supporting myself I don't need a man to do so I will get state support. Don't understand why you want to be dependant on a man, titch, anymore than I expect my husband to depend on me.

Germaine Greer said this much more eloquently. Basically her book was about women choosing to be adults rather than children.

But tatt, when women have children, the need for the children to be nurtured, means that whoever nurtures them (in most cultures, their mother) has her independent earning capacity severely restricted.

In the real world, women do become dependent on men for their financial security if they want to stay at home with their children to nurture and care for them when they are very young. The state will not support that (except with a very tiny sum of Child Benefit) to a level which would make a mother financially independent of her husband.

Does that imply that a woman who doesn't work in the cash economy, should be seen as having the status of a child?

tatt, i have no desire to be dependant on a man.

i do a job. i care for my children. dh provides the financial resources for this. if i didnt care for them, then he wouldnt be able to put in the time and effort into his job that is required for him to be successful.

a husband and wife are like the two wheels of a bicycle. they cant both be front, and they cant both be back wheels. (not a completely accurate analogy i know)

in a lot of mammals, you will find the same behaviour, the male cares for the female and her young. it doesnt mean she is incapabel of taking care of herself, it just means she is not burdened with additional hunting etc when she is trying to feed her young etc

read the earths children series of books by ray auel, it really makes you think about how flawed our society is.

I think capitalism by its very nature makes slaves of some people, usually women, children, etc.

I hope I don't sound too simplistic,as I can't express myself as eloquently as some of you, but I definitely feel free. The only thing that restricts me is me, if I let myself.

I've grown up thinking I can do anything if I put my mind to it and work hard enough for it and if I fail or make a mistake, I blame no-one but myself and learn from it.

I do think we have a culture these days of blaming everyone but ourselves and feel we should all take more responsibility for our actions/failures whatever.

So in answer to your question Pruni, yes I do think we, in Britain, are as free as we let ourselves be.