Would anyone be interested in calmly discussing this Times articles with me please?

[Sycamoretree]

Article from Times 2 today.

here

Have read with interest as DH is currently SAHD due to redunancy over a year ago, so my youngest, (DS) has only been cared for at home with a parent. He is 20 months old.

My DD is at pre-school and starts reception in Sept. She had a nanny for the first couple of years until DH got made redundant.

DH is trying hard to get back into full time work and nursery was/is something we are considering. We certainly could no longer afford a nanny for one on one childcare.

I'm particularly interested in anyone who can confidently refute this quote from Steve Biddulph:

"quality nursery care for young children doesn't exist. It is a fantasy of the glossy magazines."

On the one hand I am furious that such an article gets printed as so many of us are between a rock and hard place when it comes to just surviving, and nurseries are often the only solution.

On the other hand, if any of this is actually true, then as a society, we need to start having this debate/conversation - surely?

My brother kept going on how much he wanted to be still at nursery until he was 9. Which is quite worrying to be honest ...

Absolutely Kathy Brown. My dd has left her nursery which ds now attends. I know how she feels about her nursery - she is proud to be a 'graduate' of the place that her brother now goes to. The carers make such a fuss over her when she comes with me to collect her brother. No angst or handwringing.

You can consider yours a success story then blueshoes.
As I said a zillion pages ago it depends on the child and the nursery and even the age and what else is happening at home.

KathyBrown, sorry to hear about your experience and the effect on your dcs. The fact is you knew quite soon that it was not working out and made changes.

Kathy - I will ask my DS tomorrow if he remembers nursery. I'm not sure how far back his memory goes but I'll ask him.

My recollection is definitely of a very happy little boy who seemed to still be a happy little boy on the days he went to nursery, and in the baby room I really do remember seeing them treat him with affection because I recall thinking to myself that I had read so many things about carers not being allowed to kiss and cuddle children, and thinking 'even if they're not supposed to do it, I'm glad that they do'. I said earlier that during the first week at nursery I was concerned that I'd made the wrong choice, but after that when he settled, I never had any doubts at all.

That said, DS was part time, and I do think its a bit different if nursery is the child's environment for 5 full days each week. And of course all nurseries are different - I am still confident that I picked a good one.

KathyBrown, like you say, I have no doubt that some nurseries are better than others and some children are more suited temperamentally at an earlier age than others.

As parents, we can only be alert to changes in our dcs which indicate that a childcare provision is not working. Having used nurseries for 5 years, I don't take things for granted. Every time I enter the nursery room, I still look around and take things in. I ask the carer about my ds' day and then ask ds about his day to ensure things dovetail by-and-large. I do get calls if ds has been unsettled. If it was not working, I would change nurseries, change to a different type of childcare (eg nanny), draft in grandparents and ultimately give up my job.

I have been lucky I have not had to do any of that.

Aargh i hate these arguments.

Of course everyone must defend what they themselves do, as it is too traumatising to think that that may not be the best thing.

Of course everyone judges people who do things very different from themselves re childcare.

In practice most people know their own children and as all children are different what is right for one may be wrong for another.

I wish we could get past all this and have a grown up debate as per the OPs request.

I still want to know why little boys are so much more important than little girls as far as this article is concerned.

my mum worked FT.imbued me with good work ethic.good role model for me

apple pudding I hope you did and I'm sure you would have noticed if you didn't.
But I stood outside Leapfrog in Ellesmere Port and told the parents going into the nursery what was happening in there and they all looked at me like I was unhinged and continued using the nursery no doubt.
I overheard a little boy being called dirty for wetting himself.
My DD was put outside the toddler room for a time out just as my DH arrived to pick her up, so he waited to see how long a time out she was going to get. 15 minutes, this is in a facility with cctv so the staff know they can be checked up on and a 22 month old (baby really) child.
You can imagine we hit the roof, they denied everything, imagine what else goes on and I refuse to believe it never ever happens anywhere else, well we've all seen the documentarys we know some nurseries are very poor.
I say trust your instincts, but the fact is if mums (and it is usually mums who get the responsibility of finding childcare) are under pressure, tired from lack of sleep and maybe a touch of PND, they are going to make bad decisions they may regret.
If everyone got full pay for 2 years there wouldn't be a problem and we'd all have a clear head (and a good nights sleep) before choosing.

KathyBrown, that is horrendous. Has that nursery been closed down?

What bothered me was the parents (not just the mothers responsibility but both parents) I knew who did not question nursery care for their babies/toddlers and would eye roll and comment on how distressed the babies were at being left. One little girl who went at 6 months was still actively distressed one year on and they still sent her there. She stopped eating as protest. What more could that child do to get across to her parents that she was unhappy? One very high powered parent advised DH to start dd at nursery before 9 months because after that time they cry when you leave them "purely to blackmail parents into feeling guilty".

Just found it fecking depressing thats all.

Kathy and kerala those stories are so sad.

It has actually closed down but not because of the ofsted complaints I made but due to the lack of demand, it was based in a shopping centre so I suspect it was too expensive for the parents working in the shops.
Had there been enough customers I have no doubt the practises would have continued.
Dons flame proof suit and the truth is that nursery attracted very rough looking girls who didn't seem to have an ouch of compassion or common sense or manners and they were entrusted with babies and little ones who couldn't communicate their feelings.
I was very lucky I had a very articulate 4 year old who was determined she didn't want to be left (and she was called all the spoilt madams under the sun by the nursery manager - and we agreed until DH witnessed what he did).

dreadful experience Kathy.some nurseries are appalling.not all though.choosing any nursery is a leap of faith.you look at ofsted,visit,chat to other parents,use your instincts.fortunately your instincts were spot on

but not all parents have pnd when choosing nursery or do so under pressure. many pick nursery prior to birth.so not necessarily tired or stressed.i had nursery place booked 12wk pg.it had huge waiting list. i researched nursery and chose not under pressure

2 year pay for what? i wouldn't want to be off wrk for 2yrs.

Well then SM you were lucky to be able to plan that far ahead, I had 5 weeks to find a nursery with places for three children and would have welcomed even basic maternity pay of £100 a week for 2 years. You don't have to take it if you don't want it, for me it would have been nice to have had the choice to turn it down.

I am quite sure the money saved on therapists/social workers/anti depressants/police officers later down the line would more than cover the bill.

are you inferring that nursery causes social dysfunction and hence need for "therapists/social workers/anti depressants/police officers later down the line"

hell that is one hell of a leap.and untrue

i didnt have any luxury-had pg time to plan.as most pepole i know did.knowin i was returning i planned the nursery provision

I think that we also need to remember in all of this that not all children have a fab time at home with their parents, by a long chalk.

Just something for balance

home is the place children/babies are likely to suffer emotional/physical abuse.likely perpetrator parents.the state financially and emotionally does pick up tab for parental dysfunction at home via CAMHS,CMHT,CP,SW,A&E and police.however that is not to say all homes are dysfunctional

thing about statistics is you can infer 95% of what you want from 63%o the stats 75% of the time

not all nursery is battery hen provision for all absent

not all sahm is fluffy bun cupcake domesticity

essentially chose carefully suit your individual needs

scottishmummy, am I right to recall that your job is one that requires you to pick up the pieces of dysfunctional families? So you are speaking from real life experience ...

I think it has already been said on this thread that children from dysfunctional families might benefit from nursery care. However, that doesn't mean that children from non-dysfunctional families (which I presume/hope would be the majority) would benefit and it may, for some, be detrimental.

52% of statistics are made up on the spot apparently.

Gosh Kerala that is indeed very depressing.

I think that another way to spot a good nursery is the length and the care put into the settling in stage. This should last at least 2 weeks, and be longer for smaller children. It is during this time that the small children bond with their key worker and get used to their parents going away for a set amount if time. ANd them crucially, coming back!

Here in Italy the settling in period is taken very seriously.

I 95% agree with that.

And 100% agree with SM

Sorry. 95% agree that stats are made up on the spot.