Would anyone be interested in calmly discussing this Times articles with me please?

[Sycamoretree]

Article from Times 2 today.

here

Have read with interest as DH is currently SAHD due to redunancy over a year ago, so my youngest, (DS) has only been cared for at home with a parent. He is 20 months old.

My DD is at pre-school and starts reception in Sept. She had a nanny for the first couple of years until DH got made redundant.

DH is trying hard to get back into full time work and nursery was/is something we are considering. We certainly could no longer afford a nanny for one on one childcare.

I'm particularly interested in anyone who can confidently refute this quote from Steve Biddulph:

"quality nursery care for young children doesn't exist. It is a fantasy of the glossy magazines."

On the one hand I am furious that such an article gets printed as so many of us are between a rock and hard place when it comes to just surviving, and nurseries are often the only solution.

On the other hand, if any of this is actually true, then as a society, we need to start having this debate/conversation - surely?

There are some bad nurseries out there, so bad that it is almost impossible for one person to change the overriding culture.

I met the most lovely woman in the street who left the old nursery we used because as much as she had boundless energy with the children she couldn't make other people change.

Odd to come on here and say you feel sorry for the children in your care and not being able to express why though

Perhaps purepurple works in a not very good nursery and should look for opportunities in a better one?

In our nursery, 3 of the nursery nurses have their own children in the same nursery they work in. It was actually one of the things I asked about when I first went to see them. It can be a sign of a good nursery.

Surely the personality of a child plays a part? Dd plays beautifully with the children of friends but was utterly miserable at the nursery she went to for two sessions a week. She complained it was too noisy and boys pushed her over. Some of the other children there seemed to be having a whale of time -others looked sad and withdrawn.

It does slightly bother me when parents so want the childcare they have chosen to work out that they don't seem to listen to their child. Similar to the responses nursery workers get on threads like this.

We gave up when my usually calm dd would literally have hysterics when the very word nursery was mentioned. Nursery staff led me to feel that I was being wimpish for withdrawing her. The whole business makes me shudder I wish we had never bothered.

Pure purple is only saying the same as most intelligent, experienced, hard working and caring nursery nurses (and a few lazy ones). She just didn't highlight any of the grey areas. Only the arrogant, ill-informed or inexperienced will tell you otherwise.

I feel sorry for the babies I care for who have the most amazing mummies, and would be much better off at home. I also feel sorry for the babies I care for who benefit so hugely from our babyroom because thier homelife is so awful. The other children benefit and lose out in differing degrees.

In real life home is rarely perfect so I don't feel that part-time nursery is damaging say %60 of babies, but there are many that nursery does not suit, and I think gender is irrelevant. I hate full-time nursery for children of all ages, no matter how good the nursery. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but I have yet to meet a decent nursery nurse who thinks otherwise.

And like I said earlier, I work (hard) in one of the better babyrooms.

When nursery staff have their own children in the nursery they work in, is that an indication that they consider it a good nursery or is it so that they can be with their child? If they are present isn't it a bit different for them and their children? Would other staff treat their children differently? Wouldn't they be on hand if their child needed them, able to drop in on them easily? Do nursery staff use the nursery they work at because they get discounts for their children?

Just wondering whether there were other things to consider rather than assuming that nursery workers used the nursery they worked at just because it was a good one.

BBBB - I have tried in vain to read Steve Biddulph's book 'raising boys'. he states that daycare is not suitable for boys under the age of 3 as it does not 'suit their nature' surely every child's nature is different and not just about gender, but hey ho. He then goes on to say that this is becuase boys are more prone to separation anxiety and emotional shut down than girls. This is absolute twaddle as studies have shown anxiety disorders of ALL types are far common in girls than boys. But anyway i digress. he goes on to say in the next breath that there are little gender differences under the age of six WTF??? The man is just spouting the usual ALL of this is bad rather than a more considered, if you are not careful and use this too much or in the wrong way, it is bad. Typically, extreme examples get quoted like the french minister who left her baby in daycare 3 days after she gave birth - whatever!!

My ds1 has been at the same nursery since he was 9 months, knows all the staff and is cleary well loved, liked and cared for. DS2 has just started there and he loves it. In his book, Steve states that boys need more loving care than a creche or nursery can provide but i wholeheartedly disagree. DS1 has had lots of love and cuddles from the staff at his creche, far more than he had from the 2 disastrous childminders he had before....

Remember Penelope Leach's paper that was in the media a year or two ago? She said all children should be at home til they are 3. Well if my sons stayed at home, i would be unable to work, we would have to sell the house and most probably have to live with the in-laws. This would be disastrous for my mental health and i would end up being very depressed, frustrated etc. This is supposedly better for my boys than 2 days in nursery and 2 days with daddy??? Whilst parts of the article are just summarising others stuff, she cites a mother saying, 'i don't have time to bring up my son'. This is an extreme example and is truly unhelpful - no one would think that that was ok, would they?? These people who write this twaddle in their ivory towers (whose own children are probably grown up and they have forgotten how hard it is to juggle it all) make me so annoyed. They are patronising, dangerous and make parents feel guilty because we know that some parents get it wrong sometimes, but that doesn't make us all bad and all our children damaged.

Poor quality care by any adult (parent, childminder, nursery nurse, garandparents) will cause damage - end of. Good quality day care can come from anyone, ot just a birth mother or father

I agree with you there kerala.

I think the difficulty comes when the parents hands are forced due to having to work. My boss at work knew her son wasn't happy and wanted to be at home with her, but she wanted to work, so that was that. I know it bothered her a bit but the thing with all of this is that everyone has to be 100% convinced they are doing the best for their child. Which is why we end up with people arguing so much about this issue. Same as my boss - she had no choice with work and so DS had to go to nursery, and that was that. And she expected me to do the same, to the point of telling me to put my name down for nurseries when I was pg. And being horrified when I wouldn't agree their (not very flexible) working terms after I had DD, and left.

I have worked part time from when DD was 14mo and she has been looked after by grandparents and DH. Naturally as far as i am concerned this is absolutely the best way of doing it. People can't afford to think anything else about their own arrangements.

Thanks loulou I do find it odd that boys are to be treated with kid gloves but not a mention of girls. Children are little people and all different. It's putting these gender stereotypes on us for all our lives which causes such huge problems in our society.

So on that basis he should shut up

Also lets not forget that when women were all SAHM they were famously all on pills/drink to help them cope...

There is never going to be a perfect way to juggle our children's care and our finances/sanity. All any of us can do is try to find the best for our family, and try not to beat ourselves or each other up about it.

There is one big difference with boys in childcare - many studies have shown they receive a consistently higher level of attention than girls.

....I wonder if Steve Biddulph put that in his book?

I'm not sure what purepurple's experience is, but the reason I wouldn't put my child in a babyroom (having worked in a few myself) is due to the quality and quantity of interactions, which is difficult to define, but it's a sense that although the child is physically safe and being cared for in a practical sense ... it isn't being loved or having the depth of emotional care it should at that age.

It's not that staff in the babyroom don't care, it's just that there is so little time and so much that needs to be done that often the little smiles or gestures that you'd get from 1:1 loving care are missing.

But more importantly, I think a lot is to do with a child's temperament and disposition. Some babies are very smiley naturally and the nursery nurses are only human ... they can have favourites and always cuddle that child, while others get left aside. You feel really sad for those babies who perhaps are a bit more withdrawn/anxious, but still really need cuddles and love.

In my experience, you can't help feeling frustrated in the baby room that you're stretched too far and unable to really give babies the emotional care and love they need. A lot of my colleagues who did genuinely care about the babies and who felt that sense of deep unease ended up becoming nannies and leaving the nursery.

I think we live in a society today where parents put their material wants and lifestyles before the needs of their children.

Whenever I hear Mothers justifying their return to work, and leaving of child at nursery, by saying they 'have to go back to work for financial reasons' I really do wonder exactly what this means. Do they need to go back to work in order to ensure that the basic costs of living are met or do they mean that they have to go back to work in order to afford to maintain their pre-child lifestyle?

I think in many circumstances it is possible to downsize house, reduce holidays, sell one car etc etc in order to enable a parent to stay at home for the first few years of a childs life. Is it really such a sacrifice to do this?

As a society we need to re-assess our priorities in order to be able to care for our children ourselves.

I have only skim read the article, but have read many similar before, and have not read all the posts, but would like to add:

I returned to work when DS was 7 months old doing 5 afternoons a week so DS was in nursery for 4 hours per day. During the first week I really really thought that I had made a mistake and that he didn't need a nursery but another mummy as he was so little and wasn't used to spending time with people other than me, so he cried and cried.

However, after the first week and he settled in I have to say that the nursery was absolutely fantastic. When DS was 18 months old I changed my hours to working 3 days a week so he had 3 full days in nursery and two full days at home, and I really feel that we had the best of both worlds. People often said to me how advanced DS language development was and that they thought this was higher in children who had gone to nursery (then again I spent a lot of time talking and singing with him so perhaps that had a bearing as well). I also found the nursery invaluable in supporting toilet training, and also the fact that DS went from being a very fussy eater at about 2 to eating almost anything age 4.

With regard to individual onene care, at the time DS was at the nursery in the babyroom I think that children did get this, as he was always rocked off to sleep by a member of staff and cuddled as he had his bottle.

So - my experience has been very good but I will temper that with the fact that as I looked around for child care before returning to work that I saw many nurseries which I don't feel would have measured the standards of the one I finally found.

miggins - I think you have a valid point, but many many mums I meet stay home until the money runs out then they HAVE to return to work, most mortgages now are based on two salaries.

Also I think SANITY is a huge and very valid point to many women, I would much rather a happy working mother than a very depressed SAHM. I think part-time work, wherever possible is wonderful for this reason.

"Whenever I hear Mothers justifying their return to work, "

Mothers shouldn't have to justify their return to work. If you have to point the finger then point it at parents not just mothers. Perhaps the parents could downshift perhaps they can't. Whatever they decide is their business.
But I do think that parents should be aware of what to look for when looking for childcare and not be too trusting of people/companies who are basically businesses with a financial interest in their child. That may be a bit blunt and not the whole story and people have to make decisions based on their own situation. Nursery might be okay for some children but I don't think it hurts to be aware that it might not be best for all.

i have spoken to hundrends of nursery workers when i was nannying and also did my placement there. they all said the same as the nursery nurses here; that they wouldn't sent their baby there and they feel sorry for the babies-not the toddlers,the babies.obviously taking your baby there if you work there is compeletely diferent. surely everybody can see that.

challenging childcare is not anti-feminist, is exactly the opposite.we want better childcare so we have more options

It is not difficult to see that there will be poor nursery provision and that children who go there will not getting the care they require. I would never use such a nursery. I do wonder about the carers who think it is fine to work there.

The nursery manager at my dcs' nursery sends her sons there, fulltime I believe. I don't think a carer would be able to afford it, sadly, which is a shame because they deserve to be paid more.

Of course we want better childcare - I can't imagine anyone wanting anything else unless they had some unstated agenda of wanting to take women's choices away.

That is the problem with views like Biddulph's. Saying boys under 3 are unsuitable for nursery does nothing to argue for improved nursery provision, it just demonises nurseries (all of them, good and bad) to sell his books.

blueshoes isn't always about money. many of them have moved to other careers, making very good money but they refuse to seent their baby into nursery.

When DS was in my belly I thought to myself that when he arrived it was a bit like an alien (before anyone leaps on that one, I am not suggesting children are actually aliens) coming to earth from outerspace and me being chosen to teach that alien how to be a good Human Being, to show it how to love and be part of a family. What a privilege that would be! What an honour! How could I go about it? What is there to teach? And, crucially, having been handed this massive responsibilty, would I hand him over to strangers in the first few months - years even - to do it for me?

Well, for me, the answer had to be 'no'. Life was down-scaled, DH and I both cut our hours to part-time and share the childcare. I realise that for others this is not practical and for some it is not desirable.

As an aside, I work in the children's services (teenagers), where inspections take place annually/bi-annually and was recently told by an Inspector that Nuseries are only subjected to inspection every three years?? I for one would like to see nursery care taken A LOT more seriously by the Powers That Be.

Laquitar, once again, the unreal paradox of the nursery worker that loves children, and (from what you wrote) have options to make more money in another job but in the meantime is prepared to work for less money in a place where children are not properly cared for and which they would never send their own child to?

I must be missing something ...

Juuule, I never picked up on that, I think because I know so many people who talk like that I just 'block' it out after a while. But you are right - PARENTS rather than mothers.

Blueshoes - I hope you are not referring to me!? And the quality of a nursery depends on the quality of the carers, not how much you pay. Paying more only gets you shinier toys and rooms, with a lot of extra paperwork taking up any extra staff time.

in your previous post I mean - cross posted.