Is this an illegal exclusion? Nursery

[MumTeach88]

My 3.5 year old son was kicked out his nursery. We have been working closely with the nursery throughout and he has additional needs. We have a SEND support arrangement in place as well.

We were called in for a meeting and they informed me they don't feel they can meet his needs and that he isnt coping and is "impacting the other children". My hand was metaphorically twisted and I said "is this you saying I need to find another setting?" Long story short, yes, this was what they were doing. I agreed i would and they agreed they were happy to have him until I found one.

2 weeks later (him having only been back a day and a half as we were on holiday), they called me. They were beating around the busy and I said "so you're kicking him out?" They tried to say words around it and that it wasn't they were kicking him out, I asked "So he can come in next week then?" They said no. My husband then called them later and they confirmed they were terminating his place immediately.

I have documents with that they have done (or not as the case was) against the Support Plan. Their main issue is he was impulsive and where he has SAL issues, he can grab and hit. Now, I totally understand that's difficult, but having received rhe behaviour logs under an SAR and shared with someone working in another nursery, they feel that it is actually fairly standard 3 year old behaviour to snatch a toy or hit a child when you can't communicate. Obviously I understand this is an issue, and would never want to have my son hurt someone, but we were working with them (so we thought) on this with social stories, support plan etc. Among other things, they have issues that he cant sit still for 20mins, can't use cutlery proficiently and needs his suncream applied 1st due to allergies. They also take issue that he is not potty trained (despite us trying twice and working with them on this).

The long and short of it, is this a legal exclusion? As far as I am aware they have not submitted to LA. The nursery is independent but under OFSTED. Thanks

Start off with SAR for the period of time your child was there. Then you can find out if they have any made specific adjustments.

Absolutely there are services and funding in place. But my point is that it is quickly running out and not keeping up with the seemingly huge need for it. You can call me whatever names you like, if it bothered me i just wouldnt reply.

I have zero wishes for harm for any other person. In the same way i feel that protecting children without SEN is just as, if not more important than those with SEN.

My thoughts are not about seperating or excluding. They are based on the fact that the services and support are not there so until they are, they should not be effecting the majority without SEN.

If there is a discussion about increasing support & funding for SEN then that is brilliant but i feel it will be pissing in the wind tbh as the funding isnt there.

You are disgraceful. What a disgusting comment.

I agree with this. There is probably not much point fighting the setting which is unsuitable … focus on your son, and the positive from this will be that he will almost certainly get an EHCP very early in his educational life which will mean that his needs are far more likely to be met… hopefully by the nursery attached to your primary if there is one, with an EHCP in place he should have a smoother ride from here on. I’m so sorry this happened to you though. I have a child with SEN also and it’s very very tough.

It may be quite late to potty train a child without additional needs, but any sort of developmental delay probably impacts on that too, especially if it's speech and language. The poor OP doesn't need to feel they ought to 'crack it' on top of everything else.

I'd definitely agree with you on the fight the next battle not the last one though and maybe look on it as 'I had that fight BEFORE proper school, not when they'd started.' Other than that my only other advice would be chocolate and/or wine for the OP. They're going to need it.

Thank you for this kind comment. And yes chocolate and wine 🫠

I love the naivety of people. I guess it’s great they don’t have knowledge in just how SEN can affect children.

I don’t think people realise that some children with additional needs will never be toilet trained. 🫣

Not every child, but it is certainly within the scope of perfectly standard behaviour for this age.

There's a difference between a frustrated/upset child hitting as a reaction to a situation and a child acting that way in every situation to the point that it is ruining the experience of their classmates, which is what OP describes.

Once child's additional needs do not mean that everyone else has to put up with their abuse, and its selfish to suggest otherwise or minimise this as 'within the scope of perfectly standard behaviour'.

I think this nursery may have done you a favour OP, it sounds like this just isn't the right environment for him. Too many children. too loud, too overwhelming, too rigid a schedule, too much sitting and listening (20 minutes at 3 years old is too much without ND!).

The hard thing is finding somewhere that does work for him. It's so sad that there is so little provision for children with SEN. I hope you find somewhere lovely that works really well for him.

The language you use around ‘seeing the bigger picture to help resolve the problem’ priority for children with no additional needs rather than inclusion and the greater good for the majority is reminiscent of a very famous group of people in history that no one should want to be associated with.

As a parent of a SEN child in an appropriate setting with 1:1 and 2:1 support throughout the day I can see you don’t understand the system, funding and processes. The support is 100% there for those who need it, they may need to fine tune the process of accessing it however it’s there and it enables SEN children to be supported alongside their peers. No one at my child’s school loses out because they are there.

What does "I would probably be more understanding" look like to you? What would you expect the other parents to do exactly?

I think the nursery was right. If he's kicking and hitting, the other children do need a safe environment without risk of being attacked. Perhaps a one to one with an experienced childminder is the best option.

The sad reality is OP that most settings don't have the facilities in place to cope with SEN children. I had to withdraw DD from playgroup, nursery and school in the end as none could cope with her needs (Adhd). It's a battle you're going to fight every day of their life and there is no magic path to follow - it's horrendous that so many special schools have closed as they are needed now more than ever. Most children with SEN don't thrive in these "inclusive" environments because they're simply never inclusive enough.

Pick your battles and save this energy for finding the right primary provision and if they have an early years attached, it can help get the EHCP process into place. There is no parenting guide for having a child that doesn't fit the right mold.

It could be disability discrimination under the equality act

i recommend getting him into a pre school attached to a mainstream school. This way he will start to get access to the services he needs before he starts reception.

So lets get this right. Because your children are ok and have the full support they need, everyone else is able to access and receive the same support that makes life ok?

I would point to this thread alone as an example of there not being sufficient support and services in place otherwise the OP wouldn't have such a battle on her hands.

@Tessasanderson I don’t think I’ve ever replied to anyone so vile. You really need to think about what you’re saying - karma is a bitch. You clearly want society to go back to the 60s/70s when disabled children were carted off to asylums.

@MumTeach88 More qualified people have told you this is not illegal so I won’t add to it. I would, however say you need to find a more suitable nursery yourself. LA should be helping with the process but without an EHCP you’re fighting uphill. It generally takes a year from the start to get an EHCP.

I was in a similar position to you twenty years ago, and it took until the night before a tribunal for the LA to back down. I’ve also worked in primary for over a decade as a 1-2-1 for challenging children. The current child I’m with is only at school for one hour a day, and that’s not in the classroom. The system is broken, with no where near enough specialist places for children.

I’m sorry to say, you will have to fight a lot of battles, so I wish you good luck.

Exactly the same thing happened when my twins were in nursery. They would phone me daily shortly after drop off to collect them so when the day came that they told me they couldn’t accommodate them anymore, it wasn’t a shock. I found an amazing nursery who took them on under the assumption they had SEN and they supported us fully. By the time my DS’s started reception in a mainstream school, they both had EHCPS.
It sucks, but I don’t think it was an illegal dismissal, unless there’s EHCPS in place, unfortunately they can and do terminate placements if they can’t meet need (and have no legal obligation that they have to, which is the EHCP)
My advice would be to find a good nursery who are not only willing to take him but willing to work with you in getting him the right help and put on the right path so his future educational journey runs more smoothly. By that I mean, referrals to a paediatrician/SALT/OCT, umbrella pathway ect.

I don’t really understand these comments on cost. Whilst I also read about how jobs like this are under paid. The costs they charge are not usually bringing in massive profits, far from it, they pay all the bills inc wages and ultimately these are a business, not state run.

should we have state run nurseries for sen kids, that’s also difficult as many don’t want their kids in that setting, preferring mainstream, but not every main stream setting is equipped to have 1:1 care for each child that requires it, and funding doesn’t usually cover that.

I think all in it is very difficult, as if you are the parent of a sen child you want that support, if you’re the parent of a nt child you want them in a safe space. And even with 1:1 in a mainstream setting, depending on the child’s needs, it can be very difficult to provide that safe space for the other kids, to not have them disrupted or endure violence as it only takes a second. And you can’t have children hurt on your watch.

all in its very difficult I think for everyone involved. But I do think it is absolutely correct if a nursery finds the situation unmanageable for them they communicate that and terminate, and these guys tried to give the op time to find another setting then ultimately had to call an immediate halt. I very much doubt they did that for fun.

So what should we do with our SEN children then? Do you think we should go back to shutting them away from public view?
Your opinion is really depressing and clearly you have no understanding of how shit life is for parents of SEN children

Op is at the start of the journey, I was in the same place regards to EHCP when my child was 3. It’s not easy but if you can tap into the right support (sendiass and local SEN support groups are great) the help is there to get a solid EHCP plan in place for your child. I’m curious to know where you get your information on how much funding is available for SEN provision? (Daily Mail doesn’t count)

At last, a question rather than an insult. Although you couldnt help yourself.....

What should you do with your SEN children? Absolutely keep doing what you are doing and fight for more funding and services. I have sympathy for the situation and it needs to improve. All i have been trying to do is highlight that this is a financial issue with society as much as a business decision for a small nursery.

With respect, that is absolutely not what you implied (regardless of how you meant it) in your 1st "suck it up and pay for it, your child is impacting everyone else" comment.

Are you seriously suggesting that children with SEN should not have their educational needs met by the state, but that children without SEN should?

How about a system where we even the playing field to suit your taste and drop state funding for all child education, so all parents would need to pay privately for their children's education? That would reduce my tax bill nicely.

While we're at it, let's not treat people for broken legs, heart attacks or cancer, because people without these conditions do not need the support, so why should this lot get it for free on the NHS? Fabulous! Even more tax savings for me.

Can you now see why your comment was totally unreasonable and deeply prejudiced? The OP needs support to support her child, not unhelpful comments based on bigotry. It would be wonderful if no-one had vulnerabilities which require extra support, but that's not real life is it? Between cradle and grave, most of us will need extra support at some point from the state, either from the NHS, the education system or care as we get older. We pay taxes in order to support this system. No, it's not perfect, and not all needs are met adequately or in reasonable time, but the intent is not to just throw people overboard when their needs are inconvenient.

Also, you don't get to decide which category of person's needs are not worthy of being supported.

Wow there’s some awful stuff on this thread! Sorry OP.

As many people have said this isn’t illegal. I withdrew my son from nursery at 2, went back to previous childminder where he was well supported and then moved him to a school nursery the year before reception. School nursery was absolutely amazing in comparison - really saw him, organised SENIF, and provided appropriate support right through to the start of Y2 when we moved house. If you can find a place in a school nursery or a community nursery school (one that runs aligned to school terms, with teachers leading it) I would completely recommend that. I’m sorry it’s such a tricky path.

and @Tessasanderson we can’t afford not to give members of our society optimal skills to learn and cope with life - effective early intervention is worth a lot in the long term. Children out of school, adults unable to work or function in society are very expensive - effective early years intervention can reduce these things and is hugely cost-effective. You just have to be prepared to see longer term than next week’s costs which should be the function of government.

I would say the multiple threads on MN influence my opinion on how available funding and services are for SEN. The parents who are desperate for help but have to wait years for assessments.

I only recently donated to a local family on facebook who have had to go privately for the assessments as they had been waiting so long.