Is this an illegal exclusion? Nursery

[MumTeach88]

My 3.5 year old son was kicked out his nursery. We have been working closely with the nursery throughout and he has additional needs. We have a SEND support arrangement in place as well.

We were called in for a meeting and they informed me they don't feel they can meet his needs and that he isnt coping and is "impacting the other children". My hand was metaphorically twisted and I said "is this you saying I need to find another setting?" Long story short, yes, this was what they were doing. I agreed i would and they agreed they were happy to have him until I found one.

2 weeks later (him having only been back a day and a half as we were on holiday), they called me. They were beating around the busy and I said "so you're kicking him out?" They tried to say words around it and that it wasn't they were kicking him out, I asked "So he can come in next week then?" They said no. My husband then called them later and they confirmed they were terminating his place immediately.

I have documents with that they have done (or not as the case was) against the Support Plan. Their main issue is he was impulsive and where he has SAL issues, he can grab and hit. Now, I totally understand that's difficult, but having received rhe behaviour logs under an SAR and shared with someone working in another nursery, they feel that it is actually fairly standard 3 year old behaviour to snatch a toy or hit a child when you can't communicate. Obviously I understand this is an issue, and would never want to have my son hurt someone, but we were working with them (so we thought) on this with social stories, support plan etc. Among other things, they have issues that he cant sit still for 20mins, can't use cutlery proficiently and needs his suncream applied 1st due to allergies. They also take issue that he is not potty trained (despite us trying twice and working with them on this).

The long and short of it, is this a legal exclusion? As far as I am aware they have not submitted to LA. The nursery is independent but under OFSTED. Thanks

This is why you should submit a SAR. They will have to provide all the internal comms and records so that you know what actually happened.

I don’t think. I know

@MumTeach88 I just wanted to say i admire how strong you have been through this thread. I received plenty of verbal earlier (Plenty of agrees too) for my opinions which tbh i still hold true. However i do believe threads like this help awareness of issues from both sides. There are two sides to every story and tbh reading a lot of the OP's posts helped me try to understand her perspective.

Not everything (some are) is about being right and wrong. Not every issue can be solved to everyones satisfaction. I believe there is a huge issue brewing with regards to parents of non SEN children (The majority of schoolchildren) starting to stand up for their right for a safe and uncompromised education. The lack of funding is huge and the ability to care for children with SEN is reducing rapidly.

Do i want to see these children with SEN packed off and separated? Absolutely not. Never. Do i want to see children without SEN scared to go to school because a little classmate cannot control their actions & responses. Absolutely not.

It all boils down to funding and balance. IMO the balance is tilting in the direction that will let ALL the children down unfortunately.

The answer is funding. It always will be.

was completely justified tbf.

this post now and your first post to the OP are poles apart.

That wasnt aimed at you. All you contributed was vitriol and abuse that got deleted anyhow. Jog on

@TessasandersonYou then have to ask where the funding is coming from? This government is up to its ears in debt. Tax everyone more? It’s coming but the nhs black hole is getting bigger and that hogs the headlines.

There’s also a huge increase in Sen dc. That’s never going to be matched by increased budgets because we simply don’t have the money. We cannot have what we want and we’ve never had good provision for Sen.

I disagree about dc being in mainstream schools too. It’s clear other parents will require their dc to be safe and able to be educated without disruption. Many LAs closed down special schools after the Warnock Report and there’s a severe lack of places. These schools had a staffing ratio of 1:6. So much better for dc snd annual reviews considered reintegration to mainstream. Plus there were special units within mainstream schools and these have been largely dismantled. They had specialist teachers and advised colleagues on strategy and effective teaching.

However behaviour issues have always caused stress in schools. Many heads will exclude these dc and they do need a special school or class. Money does dictate they won’t get it and political policy is all about sponsors and mainstream. I think most parents of dc with behaviour issues would prefer specialist teachers in a smaller setting. Not mainstream. Won’t be happening so all dc suffer.

Like I said though, justified. Not particularly bothered if it was deleted or not really.

anyway OP I hope you get some support for your son. It can be incredibly isolating being the parent of a SEN child. The SEN boards are much better for advice I’ve found.

hopefully in time more specialist settings will pop up but I won’t hold my breath. It truly is a rather depressing picture.

What a great post. I wish i had answers but i know it will all come down to funding and like you i believe there are too many black holes to be dealt with which will take priority.

To lighten the depressing tone of this thread, my experience of my SEN child attending a mainstream school is the opposite to many of these posts. We go to a small village school, she has 1:1 and 2:1 support throughout the day, a solid EHCP, appropriate funding, and no other children lose out, are at risk or are disrupted due to my child being there. We only have positive feedback, I regularly get stopped on my way in/out of school by parents of children in different years to tell me of interactions their children have had with mine (my child is largely non verbal so this means the world) how much their children love my child and that they talk about them at home. My child has loads of friends in her class and gets invited to all of the parties, the kids are so kind, parents too. It was a difficult road to where we are and I did my time to get there but it’s possible, if you are very determined (most people are for their children) and resilient to overcoming the obstacles thrown in the way by LA, NHS etc, you can create a situation where your child can thrive in their education setting. Being part of a community which includes people with disabilities should not be considered negative for children. Finding the right setting is everything, it’s the ones that lean in and gladly do and learn whatever they can to accommodate/ improve you need to find rather than the ones who push back negatively. If my child was younger and we were just starting out with the EHCP process I would feel like giving up after reading most of this. If anyone is feeling disheartened please remember people share negative experiences more than positive, it’s human nature. And a lot of opinions are from people who don’t understand the system because they have no lived experience of it. And are basing their views on what they read on Mumsnet (which goes back to the point of people sharing negative experiences, anyone going off this is unlikely to have a balanced view). In reality most people are kind ❤️🙏

Same! After a horrendous experience with his nursery, he is now settled into a wonderful mainstream school with amazing teachers and a support through an EHCP. He is so happy, is thriving, and has friends. There is hope!

@JH0404 Was your child biting others? Throwing chairs around? How about kicking teachers? What about punching dc in the playground? You will find very aggressive dc frighten others. They aren’t seen as cute and friendly. Not all Sen is the same and most dc embrace most Sen dc. What they don’t like is frightening violence. This is Sen but not ok in a mainstream school.

Mine was. Not anymore, thanks to excellent support and his needs being met.

Specialist provision, non classroom provision and flexi schooling would be my guess for the extremely violent hypothetical child you mention. My child has 2:1 supervision outdoors as she runs off, I believe this ratio is also appropriate for challenging behaviour. I know of a non classroom provision (care farm setting) that take children who arrive with their own support workers, I can’t claim to have any further knowledge on this. The child in original post is 3 so it’s unlikely their behaviour will escalate to the extreme if they have early support and intervention. ✌️

@JH0404 These were real life examples of the behaviour encountered in schools. Do you live in a bubble? They are not hypothetical problems and are seen in many schools today. Do you think dc should not be in school if you want flexi schooling? What about working parents? Who pays for 1:2 provision if no EHCP? Schools cannot afford this. I don’t think you fully understand the issues faced by schools where dc have the behavioural issues I’m talking about.

I think I’ll leave this here with you as we seem to be going off piste in a direction I’m not interested in entertaining. Take care and be kind ✌️❤️ 🙏

Well dealt with.

👍🏻

@JH0404 I’m sure you are not interested because the situations I describe are what the op will be facing. You are in your particular Sen bubble and not seeing the wider issues brought about by behaviour Sen. I hope your dc never encounters such dc but the thread was about schools trying to balance the needs of these dc, not yours.

Legally, I don’t believe there is anything you can do. Education is not compulsory under age 5.

You would need to check through the nursery policies to see if there is a clause about exclusion and the reasons why they would do so. We have a policy in terms and conditions about exclusion for behaviour and being unable to meet a child’s needs. We’ve never excluded a child but we have had to reduce down hours for certain children who have shown violent or biting issues.

Exclusion is seen as poor practice, especially with the funding and if you did put in a complaint with council/ofsted they would likely investigate why they can’t successfully support your child. There would be no legal outcome though.