Nursery red flag - help!

[Superstorefan123]

Hi all, I would welcome some advice on whether I’m overreacting or these are genuine red flags for nursery. Context child is 15 months.

We put my sons name down during pregnancy on what seemed like a fab forest school. Naively didn’t really think about it again until this week when a few things have come up during settling process which I consider red flags and would love some perspective

• sleep - told the nursery my son struggles to sleep independently and would potentially struggle to settle. He can be held, rocked, prammed, fed to sleep etc but can’t just be laid down to fall asleep. They said bluntly due to staff ratios they can’t rock or cuddle but they would pick him up as a last resort but try other things first. They said they could sit with him initially and pat him if needed. I worry what that means in practice.
• they are constantly promoting via email a well known local sleep trainer and have on their website a lot of info about it being important children learn to self settle - again I recognise this will be in the end goal at nursery that he can just lie down and fall asleep but I am very anti sleep training and I expected some comfort in the beginning at least?
• they said they put all the children in cribs at 12 and have a 2 hour sleep window. They said if my son wasn’t tired they’d give him some toys to play with in the crib - but do you think they mean 2 hours sat in a crib?! He normally only sleeps for 1 hour and I was expecting less at nursery! That’s a long time just to sit!
• they last had an Ofsted in 2018 which had some improvements required. They then ‘shut the nursery’ at some point (not sure when but we viewed in 2023 and operations have never ceased as far as I can tell) but reopened in 2024 under same name (changed childcare to nursery in title) and same location. They have no ofsted now as they are too ‘new’… however surely red flags?? A was of avoiding scrutiny?
• they have no reviews online again because they are ‘new’ but they aren’t?? On their website they say they’ve been running for years!

I of course plan on following up on all of this when we go to settle 2 Monday - I feel I didn’t ask enough questions as I was genuinely shocked about the responses.

Im now terrified of sending him in and unsure what to do - we have parent support as back up but welcome opinions!

I think worth noting - I am generally anxious about return to work so happy to be told I’m overreacting. Also I do fully understand that nursery is different to home and he can’t get the same attention.

but a few friends have said nurseries were happy to rock their children initially and then place them down (my son will happily be put down in a crib it’s just the getting off to sleep bit) so I think my expectations were higher??

help needed - super spiralling!!

Trust your gut. A child minder might be a better option for you.

The sleep thing is totally usual at nursery
they cannot rock, push etc 20 kids to sleep that’s why they have a routine as they suggest
staff will sit with your child etc
you may find he’s so tired he does sleep
the OFSTED could have even improvements needed around paperwork. Look it up on the website

terrified is a strong word to use
perhaps with your views more one to one care or a childminder may suit you? I would do the setting sessions and see how you feel but nothing you have outlined is unusual for a nursery

Nursery staff are magicians. So many posts on here over the years about 'that will never work for my child' but within a very short amount of time the children literally lie down and sleep. Of course they are nice to children who aren't able to settle or wake up, but nap time works for the vast majority of children. DD used to sit with her dolls, one on either side of her, rubbing their backs as they lay, which was clearly how they supported the children at her setting. The other stuff - if you don't feel happy, find another setting, but none of it would be a major issue for me.

They may have rocked the children as they were younger than a 15 months toddler

As an early years practitioner those are definitely red flags! I’ve worked in a number of nurseries for the last 9 years and all of them have rocked and cuddled babies to sleep if that’s what the babies need. Regardless of if they’re new and unsettled or been there for a long time. Their needs are met in a way which comforts them.

nurseries do generally like the toddlers / older children to nap at the same time, however I have never heard of an awake baby being in a crib for 2 hours if they’re not tired. In my experience, those on a different sleep schedule, sleep when they need to and play in the room normally if all of the others are asleep.

I would be asking a lot of questions if I was you as none of this sits right with me.

I wouldn’t worry so much about not being able to rock or cuddle him to sleep. He’ll quickly get used to the new routine and nurseries are wizards at getting kids to sleep with no drama.

I’m not so sure about the set 2 hour cot times though. That sounds unusual and not my experience. Mine basically play until they drop and are moved to the sleep area when the staff see they are visibly tired and when they are more used to the routine, both of mine would take themselves off to the sleep area themselves.

This is children same age as my son starting now. One place is even contact napping! I respect that this might be a case of my friend being very lucky rather than me being unlucky but it doesn’t seem impossible to do it for a 15 month old?

But noted about it being quite standard for nurseries and I do respect that this is a sensitive topic for me for a range of reasons so chances are I’m overreacting

He’s 15 months. Not a baby

This was my expectation - my son is very low sleep needs so even at home in perfect conditions does 1 x 1 hour nap. He has been known to just lay down mid playing and sleep if tired enough but I worry if he’s put in a crib not tired he’ll just get himself very worked up

I always wonder why people suggest childminders instead of nurseries for issues like this? As the ratio of adults to children is likely worse?

But yes OP I'd try looking somewhere else just for comparison, my daughter was a terrible sleeper and was comforted more often than not.

Thank you - will definitely be following up! I feel incredibly guilty now that I haven’t sleep trained my child before this point as I know 15 months is quite old to not be able to sleep independently but because he can generally do pram/car/rock/feed it’s never been an issue until now.

I think the sleep thing is standard. My oldest DD went to private nursery and for the first 2 weeks they rocked her to sleep in the room in a buggy. Then they preformed some kind of magic and got her to sleep in a cot. She even went to sleep the day they forgot to give her dummy. Nursery have 3 babies to 1 adult so they can’t cuddle them all to sleep.

That Ofsted report would worry me and I would be looking for alternative childcare.

Pram would be amazing and my preferred option. Even letting him sit in a pram and drift off without help as he does this regularly sat on the bus etc. it’s the laying down in the crib I worry he won’t get on with as he tends to just stand up and sob when we try it at home.

I would worry about the 2 hour sleep window, the pushing of sleep trainers and most of all about the closure/reopening and no Ofsted report. Sorry, you may need to try elsewhere.

Thanks for those who’ve replied so far - would really welcome views from nursery workers on how standard the sleep set up is? My NCT group is a mixed bag of sleep trained kids who’ve settled easily and nurseries who will rock/pram even at 15m so trying to gauge what is normal (as want to adjust my expectations no matter what setting he goes to).

ps I know long term he will lay down and sleep hopefully so I guess I’m asking about the initial period IF he’s upset

You say it’s a forest school. Does this mean the children are outside for much of the day? What is the routine/timetable for going outside? This might explain the rather rigid nap time, as they won’t be able to accommodate children who want to play when others are sleeping and then take themselves off to lie down when they are ready. If they are outside playing all morning it maybe that they get tired enough they are ready for a sleep and also that the afternoon will be very active so they benefit from a good sleep. Though 12 seems quite early - when do they get lunch? They will need to feed them all before 12 or they will be very hungry by 2.
It maybe that if the children are getting a lot of outside activity that they do all settle and have quite a long sleep - children are likely to behave very differently away from home and with different carers as regards accepting a routine like this. If they are getting a lot of active play outside your son may well follow the lead of other children and settle into the routine. It is good that children learn to settle themselves to sleep though this probably won’t carry through to home or not for some time. I’d look closer at the routine and give it a go if other factors that attracted you are still there.

The other thing you might be able to try is saying something like he has separation anxiety and could you stay for a bit when he starts to help settle him in. This would give you an opportunity to observe closely. I don’t know if nurseries would allow this now, they seem so regimented but when I was looking at a local nursery much beloved of the smart set when my DD was about 3 this is what I did. (About 2003 - a lot has changed since then). Anyway as soon as I said that they were quite happy for me to stay and soon put me to work reading to the children and washing paint pots while the manager disappeared into her office to do paperwork. I observed that at snack time the children were simply given a plate of food (biscuits and fruit I suppose, I can’t remember precisely) to share around the table as they all sat down while the staff sat at a separate table chatting and having coffee. This was very different to how things were done at DD1’s pre-school were food was passed individually by staff expecting please and thank you and then a member of staff would sit at the table and lead conversation. I also saw that the children didn’t go out to play at all which was a big surprise as this particular nursery is in a barn conversion within the grounds of a stately home (not open to the public - the main house has been converted into smart flats). One of the reasons I was interested was I expected there would be lots of outdoor activities in the beautiful setting. I asked the manager about this and she gave some guff about it being a lot of work to get them all into their wellies etc and some mothers didn’t like their children going outside. 🤷‍♀️
Anyway as a result of my observations she didn’t go there so it was a very fruitful tactic.
She was lucky enough to get a place at a marvellous Montessori school where there was lots of outdoor play and daily cleaning out the rabbits which hopped around the garden freely. She learned beautiful table manners there, children sat down, no sippy cups allowed, the owner was very insistent they learned to use a proper cup and knife and fork properly.

It is difficult with a first baby and returning to work as you don’t know what to look out for. I had been able to do a regular once a week help session at DD1’s pre-school which reduced fees and gave me the opportunity to watch and learn. I don’t know if anywhere allows this now. It meant that when DD2 started there and the marvellous manager left I was able to observe very concerning changes with the new manager and had her out of there by the end of term hence visiting other nurseries.

The sleep thing wouldn’t stress me. I sent my DC at one having only ever contact napped his whole life and had no idea what to expect. Literally off the bat there he happily lay down on a floor mat with the others for his nap (and it was happily - they had a camera parents could watch and I checked the first few days). He slept longer with the others too than at home because he was wiped by all the stimulation. The Ofsted report is a different matter… and the closing down and opening back up, that would be a red flag for me. I’d look into those rather than worry about the sleep.

You need a childminder, a nursery is definitely not the setting for you.

On the set times thing - our nursery also did this. Worried me a little as it wasn’t at the time mine usually napped but they love the routine at nursery and so we just tweaked the time at home to match and it was fine. Again, they will go down earlier at nursery than home because they’re tired by all the activities, the friends, the noise etc.

@User050509 thanks for replying, can I just check was it the same situation that the children had to stay in crib for 2 hours regardless of sleeping? I’m happy to adjust schedule to the nurseries schedule (he normally naps earlier but I’ve said he’s fine to fall in line) it’s more the 2hr duration which is concerning me as he does much less

I might ask about floor mats, my son will sometimes happily just fall asleep on the floor if he’s tired enough it’s more the crib that I’m concerned about (especially if he’s not tired)

For some context here is what they did for my boy when starting settling sessions at 12m and going 3 days at 14m. He was napping twice a day by that point (just) and so they offered him a nap whenever he felt tired - at first this was around 9.30/10 for a short nap then again later on, which was fine in his room as they all just slept whenever they needed based on home routine. It was in a cot. But when he moved up to the next room they were all sleeping at 12, on floor mats, this is fairly normal. So he quickly readjusted himself and stopped needing 2 naps, but was at the right ish age for that anyway.

For settling, mine didn't self settle and they never promoted this. He also struggled to settle in. They held him constantly for his first few weeks, sang and rocked him to sleep when he was tired and then very quickly they could lay him down. After 3 or 4 weeks there he could easily take himself to his floor mat and lie down, any kids that needed a pat to get off to sleep had staff there to do that (say 2 or 3 staff with hands on 2 kids at a time). They really do adjust to this and it helps that they are very tired. At home he still was cuddled or fed to sleep.

The general nap window was 2hours but if any wake up and are happy they just let them go off to play. Again easier as on floor mat. If any need longer they let them sleep. If I needed naps capping they would do this but only after a certain age and only if he could be gently and happily woken, if he's trying to go back to sleep or upset they let him. He now naps 45mins and his nap has been less than an hour since 2years; childrens sleep needs vary greatly and even more so as they get older so they should respect this.

The sleep trainer thing is not something I would be at all happy about. It's a parental preference and should not be pushed onto parents. It's not a safety or a health issue (such as rearfacing car seats, which my nursery has a leaflet promoting in the window). It's also a business/profit thing so not appropriate for them to push this onto tired and anxious mothers.

In summary I wouldn't worry about the set nap time- this is standard, but I wouldn't be happy if he had to remain in his cot awake or they cannot support to sleep initially. Wouldn't want sleep training pushed on me. I'd be looking elsewhere.

I generally feel happy with most things about nursery and definitely don’t expect 1:1 attention - I’m also happy for them to try settling him in cot or just seeing if he’ll lay down (I have tried it myself at home!). I’m asking if he won’t do that (which a lot of children I know won’t) is it reasonable to expect him to be cuddled or just left to cry to sleep? If it’s cry to sleep - then correct it isn’t for me and I would look at alternative arrangements. Based on this thread a mixed bag so will have a chat with them about what is possible.

Why? How would a childminder be able to cater to specific needs better than a nursery, when they'd likely have a bigger child:adult ratio?