Is it me or is this nursery shit? Should I move DD?

[nothappywithnursery]

Is it me or is this a shit nursery?

I’ve put DD forward to be investigated for some behaviours she’s displaying (most likely ADHD). For over a year now, nursery staff have dismissed any behavioural concerns I’ve had for DD as “it’s a phase and she’ll grow out of it” kind of thing and I stupidly (or because I’ve been in denial) believed it thinking maybe her behaviour was down to life events beyond her control- lockdown, her dad getting married to his partner, them having a new baby, etc. That is, until I observed DD at a party at a friends house a couple of weeks ago and it was so obvious she was different from the other children around her. So, I instigated a referral through the GP for DD to be seen by the local child development team and asked nursery what their thoughts were re: DDs behaviour, emotional regulation, etc. This time, I got something along the lines of “we’ve not been too worried but now that you mention it, there are some things that aren’t quite right…” so I asked them if I could have some observations of DD in certain situations so I could recommend strategies that might help her stay on task, keep focussed, etc. (I work in a related field) and was promised they’d get onto it straight away. Apart from two photos uploaded on the parent portal (where DD looks miserable ‘playing’ with a toy designed for babies- she’s 2.5 and wouldn’t normally touch toys like that- the entire situation looks staged), nothing else materialised. Today at pickup, I get told DD had refused her lunch and had only had a few sips of water all day and that she’d also pushed over another child when she didn’t get her way. I’m so disappointed as I’ve asked to come in and speak to her key worker (who we’ve not yet been officially introduced to) to explain what works for DD at home and I’ve been refused this (covid rules mean they won’t allow anyone in and the key worker is too busy during the day to talk to me) and also written in with a list of things that I find helps keep DD calm and engaged but I was made to feel like I was a meddling parent and my advice wasn’t needed because their staff is “highly qualified and trained and knows what to do” (nursery manager’s words).

What do I do now? Do I withdraw her from the current nursery and keep her at home and focus on correcting certain behaviours until I know what the outcome of her assessment is/a place becomes available at a new nursery? This would mean me giving up work (something I can’t afford to do) and forfeiting the £3000+ fees I’ve paid for DD attending nursery this term.

I’m really confused and could do with some advice.

What behaviours are you concerned about?

She may be considered to be within the normal range of 2-3yo even if she is flagging concerns to be monitored. Have they put her on a SEN plan?

They should make time to speak with and discuss your concerns and any observations they have made. We would welcome a list of ways to engage and comfort a child.

It’s my understanding (as the parent of a child with ADHD) that diagnosis before 6/7 is fairly unusual as until then it difficult to separate behaviour from age typical stuff. What specifically are you concerned about?

She's far too young for them to be considering an adhd diagnosis. What exactly are you concerned about?
And what relevance is her refusing lunch and pushing a child to the nursery standard? The same with the "inappropriate" toy. She's obviously picked it up, they've not thrust a baby toy into her hands at force. I fail to see how that, or the points above are an issue.

Keep your job
Keep her there til another nursery place comes up
Wait for assessment

Do I withdraw her from the current nursery and keep her at home and focus on correcting certain behaviours

Not sure what you meaN by " correct ing "
She is little
You may need different strategies
Direct to different behaviour
Distract
Teach other ways of communicating

2-3 is far to young to be thinking about ADHD. you just can't tell at that age.

keep her in nursery. keep your job. keep an eye on things.

Yes, it is very poor that they won't meet with you (there are platforms you can use to video call - I do understand that parents aren't being invited in to Nursery at the moment), and I would take that up with the owner / director if the manager will not facilitate that.

However, ADHD is not diagnosed before a child is about 7, as all symptoms are normal toddler behaviour.

Why have you paid £3k up front ?
If you are not happy with the provision then there are lots of alternatives to giving up work - other Nurseries or childminders or a Nanny or Nanny share for example.

Firstly, refusing food and pushing a child are quite normal toddler behaviours. Unless there's a pattern of these things, it's unlikely the nursery would worry/inform you. Though I would expect a heads up if my child had eaten nothing all day as they might be ill!

Second, when you say your DD was 'different' from other children at the party, what differences were you picking up on that concerned you?

Thirdly, how is the nursery's overall communication with you? They should be giving you daily updates on what your DD is doing with them and regular updates on how she is doing in relation to the EYFS areas of learning. Her progress should be reviewed between ages 2 and 3 and a report made available to you.

I wouldn't panic but as an initial action I would email them to ask "How is DD's development in relation to the level you would usually expect of 2-3 year olds under the EYFS?" Ask them to specifically identify areas of concern (for instance, personal, social and emotional development, if that's a problem) and how they're planning to help your DD to develop in these areas.

By way of comparison, my DC's nursery send through frequent explanations of how DC is developing their skills in relation to the EYFS and what activities they are planning to promote DC's development in certain areas (for example, PSED - encourage DC to dress themselves, with appropriate assistance).

Also, the toy thing wouldn't worry me. Toddlers frequently revisit baby toys.

Early intervention is possible and the best for children's long term outcomes, anyone saying you can't get early diagnosis ....it depends on your area the severity and the early years proffesional working with them. As a childminder I've got early support for lots of children. ASD diagnosis on 2 and raised EHCPs with parents.
Op if you think something is wrong Goldbar has given you some good pointers....although the age expectations have been removed from the EYFS this September they are still used in refferring children.
Make a list of concerns with evidence like video and approach your HV or GP if nursery won't help. Many settings are lazy and decide to leave it to school but this dosent have to be the case.

The people suggesting that a diagnosis for ADHD at that age is highly unlikely are correct. I’d be very surprised if there were variation in other parts of the country or that this depends on severity. This isn’t to say that no diagnosis can be made in EY for other conditions including autism. If the setting isn’t keen to push for a referral it might be better to have a good long conversation so they are clear about what you are seeing and you are clear about their perspective. Parents know their children better than anyone and may be highly sensitive to their child’s problems, but providers do also tend to have a strong knowledge of the variations which can occur within typical development. You will probably come away from that meeting either feeling that the provider doesn’t really know your child- in which case it’s not a great provision for them- or that they know your child but hold a different view about their development- in which case you might be better to watch and wait.

@nothappywithnursery what specific behaviours are you concerned about or do you think your DD is definitely displaying 'red flags'? Tbh your DD's childcare setting doesn't sound very good. For starters key workers should always make themselves available at some point during the day to speak to parents and in particularly if they've got any concerns.

You're perfectly within your rights to ask for any written observations and pictures of your DD doing a specific task or activity. These observations should be done anyway on a regular basis with all children to ensure they're meeting certain developmental milestones such as fine motor skills maturing. It's important that your DD is in a stimulating and fun environment and she is given the correct toys / tasks for her age group as otherwise she'll be bored and appear uninterested. This could explain the 'staged' pictures...

The staff need to genuinely love their jobs as that really does reflect in the children...

She might cope better with a childminder or a nanny. Nurseries are busy places & she may find it overwhelming. I don't think you should give up work but a different childcare setting might help her.

My 2.5 year old was passed a baby toy last week and refused to put it down. Small children don't know which toys are not for them.

I was told by a paediatrian that all children have ADHD before the age of 7.

What is it that is making you lean towards ADHD specifically?
You clearly have concerns about her behaviour and I do think you should trust your instincts there, but she is very young.

Your nursery should definitely be listening to you and the keyworker should be making the time to see you. Covid is no excuse. I would be looking for a new nursery, this one sounds unsuitable.

Hi all, apologies for going awol. DD has been poorly and life has been busier and more demanding than usual.

For those of you asking why I think DD potentially has ADHD: she is all over the place, struggles to stick to something for longer than 30 seconds and would rather be running around, flapping her hands and singing at the top of her voice than doing anything else. She's a runner so will make it into a game for the adult to chase her when she's meant to be eating, having a story read to her, getting changed or ready for bed. Sleep is atrocious in that she gets between 6-7 hours a night and is exhausted the next day but refuses to nap. She's incredibly fidgety and will want to play with anything and everything and won't listen to reason when asked to put something down. She's also incredibly impulsive so will snatch things from others and will have a meltdown when reprimanded. I don't know where she gets the energy she does. I've seen other children her age and she is nothing like them. She's also very sensory in her approach to things so she will want a tight hug, will come up close and squash other children, she'll squeeze them until they cry and won't understand that they don't like what she's doing, etc. I understand her behaviours could be a number of things, including ASD, etc. but the inattention, being 'on' all the time and wanting to do what she wants all the time is what is pointing me down the ADHD path. HV has made a referral so I'll see what happens next.

No news from nursery re: anything I've previously requested- observations, etc. since I first posted so I'm thinking this is the limit of their operations. They work how they do and don't want to be bothered too much with anything else which is a shame.

As for the baby toy- I don't mind what she plays with and am happy for her to revisit toys from early childhood but the photo shows DD sitting at a table looking miserable with the toy. I don't know if the photo was taken just to appease me or if the toy was something DD was already playing with (doesn't look like it) or if it was part of a planned activity (again, doesn't look like it).

@converseandjeans

She might cope better with a childminder or a nanny. Nurseries are busy places & she may find it overwhelming. I don't think you should give up work but a different childcare setting might help her.

Thank you for this. I hadn't considered a child minder or nanny but need to look into this. It would be much more costly but right now, I'd do anything to get DD in somewhere where she is happy and where her behaviours are being addressed rather than her being left to her own devices, which is what I feel is happening atm.

Sounds a lot like my son at that age. I knew his behaviour wasn’t quite right even then but it wasn’t taken seriously by anyone. I thought adhd too. He was diagnosed with developmental coordination disorder at 11. He is still very fidgety and can’t sit still or properly! Not adhd though. Also agree with others that due to her age she’s unlikely to be diagnosed this young with anything. Keep up the strategies that work at home and make notes on your concerns. It may not be apparent if there is anything ‘wrong’ until she’s school age.

@Tumbleweed101

She may be considered to be within the normal range of 2-3yo even if she is flagging concerns to be monitored. Have they put her on a SEN plan?

They should make time to speak with and discuss your concerns and any observations they have made. We would welcome a list of ways to engage and comfort a child.

She's not been put on any plan atm. The nursery manager said she'd have a think and get back to me but hasn't. Either DD is a different person at nursery than she is at home (I wouldn't know since they won't let me in, her KW won't talk to me or pass on any written/photo observations) and my parenting is the issue or there's definitely something brewing underneath. I'm a teacher so know how to manage Children’s behaviours, teach social and emotional skills but my DD just isn't responsive to anything I do.

@ButterflyBitch

Sounds a lot like my son at that age. I knew his behaviour wasn’t quite right even then but it wasn’t taken seriously by anyone. I thought adhd too. He was diagnosed with developmental coordination disorder at 11. He is still very fidgety and can’t sit still or properly! Not adhd though. Also agree with others that due to her age she’s unlikely to be diagnosed this young with anything. Keep up the strategies that work at home and make notes on your concerns. It may not be apparent if there is anything ‘wrong’ until she’s school age.

I hadn't even considered DCD! DCD and ADHD go hand in... so maybe I'm not too far off the mark if she fits the criteria for DCD.

I think perhaps looking into ASD would be a better fit atm. Sensory, a runner, meltdowns, poor sleep - all can be explained by ASD also.

I have my own nursery. At that age SEN or physical problems would only cause a red flag in terms of development when they’re severe enough to impact the minimum level we think they should be at. So it’s definitely not a red flag that they haven’t spotted anything - I have two ASD kids in my nursery, diagnosed at 2 and 3 (siblings), who are no different development wise to the other kids. I was shocked when we were told of the diagnoses; and it only happened because an elder sibling was diagnosed and the specialist caught it in the other kids during a joint play session!

Far more important than how well they develop, is how much do they regress (any signs of regression after 2 is a sign of concern in my opinion, even if minor). We managed to catch really severe illnesses (rickets, leukemia) by making referrals because they suddenly stop doing things they always have done.

What worries me from your post is the lack of regular documented observations. They should be doing that at least a few times a week.

@Ozanj

I have my own nursery. At that age SEN or physical problems would only cause a red flag in terms of development when they’re severe enough to impact the minimum level we think they should be at. So it’s definitely not a red flag that they haven’t spotted anything - I have two ASD kids in my nursery, diagnosed at 2 and 3 (siblings), who are no different development wise to the other kids. I was shocked when we were told of the diagnoses; and it only happened because an elder sibling was diagnosed and the specialist caught it in the other kids during a joint play session!

Far more important than how well they develop, is how much do they regress (any signs of regression after 2 is a sign of concern in my opinion, even if minor). We managed to catch really severe illnesses (rickets, leukemia) by making referrals because they suddenly stop doing things they always have done.

What worries me from your post is the lack of regular documented observations. They should be doing that at least a few times a week.

I'd love to know where your nursery is and see if you could help.

There has been some regression in skills when it comes to attention (the little she does display). Previously DD would be able to answer basic questions. Now, there are sensory lapses and she genuinely doesn't hear parts of a conversation and will look very upset if she's asked why she hasn't done XYZ. She'll reply 'because you didn't tell me' or 'I don't know'.

The lack of observations is really annoying me. I love lost track of the number of emails I've sent asking what Dd has been up to that week. Nothing comes through. She's not even visible in the weekly newsletters. It's 6 weeks into the new term and she was featured in 1 newsletter and only 4 individual observations have been added with a one line sentence underneath.