DD hurt by member of staff at Nursery - Ofsted!?

[Leah4]

My DD who is 4 and a half, came home from her nursery yesterday with two long scratches just below her collar bone, and it was also very red. She was happy when I collected her, and only mentioned it at home. It looked very sore and quite alarming. When I asked her what had happened, she initially said "I don't know", and then after further questions, said that her nursery teacher had grabbed her shoulder to get her in line.
My DH and I went to the nursery this morning, to speak to that member of staff. She said that she would never do such a thing and she could not have scratched my DD as she does not have any nails. I said that she could still inflict scratches if her nails are short and ragged, which they were. She also thought that it could have been one of the children. This is definitely not possible due to the angle of the scratch, and I explained this. It does look like she had been grabbed quite hard. She said she would speak to my DD today about it. She would not admit that it could have been her fault. My DD does not make up stories, and has been happy at nursery. Her manager is away for 2 weeks. I am really angry about what happened, and my DD was also to upset to tell the member of staff that she did this, when we spoke to her.
Sorry for the long post. My DD is at the nursery until the end of August as she starts school in the Autumn, and I have paid up to then. I feel like taking her out now.
Should I wait for the manager to come back, and what would the next step be? I have never had an incident like this, so I am unsure as to what to do next. Any advice would be helpful. Thanks.

The Manager must have a deputy or an owner. I would insist on seeing someone to sort it out. I would also speak with your DD again, just to make sure she hasn't fuddled 2 different incident in her mind - if only for the reason that as you say, she seemed happy when you picked her up.

On no account however would I want a member of staff speaking to my child about an incident, without me being there.

It could have been another child but if you wish to take it further you need to ring social services and they will investiagate.

I'd take it up with a manager / deputy manager

I find that kids generally forget things and can make things up when put on the spot and without any evidence to the contrary you may just have to decide for yourself who you believe in this instance

I don't understand your 'angle of the scratch' comment though ... your child could have been sitting and another one standing .. kids make quite vicious scratches .. short nails, however ragged, do not easily scratch people unless deliberately and why would a nursery worker purposefully inflict an injury especially a visible one

I am not saying your dd is lying .. far from it .. just urging caution in how you proceed

If the member of staff is such a bully that she is scratching children enough to make them bleed, I don't think that your dd would be so happy.

It's possible that she scratched herself, or one of the other children did it, and she is confused about what happened.

Putting things into perspective here, I have to say that there is many a time I have had to correct my ds by placing him on a spot to administer something or other, sun cream, hairbrushing and I have caught him one or two times with my nails.

The question I would have to ask myself 'was this done intentionally?' The answer would have to be, if this has not happened before then 'no'.
The carer isnt even aware that she might of caused these scratches. She may well of, if this is what your dd has said but it wasnt done intentionally.

My ds has often grumbled when I have caught him awkwardly, it happens.

I think you need to talk to the manager about this, or a deputy, to try and ensure you have the full story first. My 4yo is always coming home from nursery with various scratches and bruises, although nothing ever serious. often nursery don't mention it and I suspect they would have no idea how they were caused. i know DD gets these at home too, when playing, and I often have no idea. However my DD may try to explain them away, although it is often easy for them to mix up different incidents and make their own guesses as to when it happened - which is not telling lies or making stories up - it is them not being sure.

The angle bit can easily be done away with if your child was sat down - then anyone could have done it - child or adult.

The pulling back into line thing may be a totally different incident, but one your child can remember.

If this nursery teacher did do it through grabbing your child hard, then yes she needs speaking too. But I would definitely try to find the full story first.

I wouldn't go to OFSTED just yet.

My 4 year old makes things up if he thinks I want an answer and he doesn't know how something happened.

I would be careful about calling in SS when your dd said she didn't know how something had happened, and was happy and not apparently aware of the scratches.

At our nursery staff are generally not left alone with children (for their own protection). Talk to the acting manager, but I think you may have to be prepared to accept that no-one really knows how they happened.

If the scratches were noticed at nursery they would have gone in the accident/incident book.

what was your impression from speaking to the person? do you think she was telling the truth?
tbh if she got two long scratches from an adult or from a child I would have expected someone to have noticed at the time - and to have recorded it. I can't imagine that would have gone unnoticed, and if it did I wouldn't be all that impressed by the level of supervision. I would approach it that way i.e. she was scratched - why didn't anyone notice?

I can completely understand your concern and shock at this, but like the others, i would say proceed very cautiously.

DS came home from nursery with all manner of bruises and scratches, because in general the play with other children can be boistrous, and he was often totyally unaware how some HUGE bruises had been caused! But he loved his nursery staff and was very happy there. Other times he would ascribe an ioncident that had happened- he fell off his chair, for instance, with a minor scatch that had obviously been caused in soe other incident entirely!

Bumps that would cause a huge outbreak of weeping at home seem to be incurred without even being noticed when they are engrossed in play with other children.

Also, when asked for an explanation, i think children feel that are doing what we ask if they give one - so the fact that she said she didn't know the first time you asked, but had found an answer - which she thought was what you wanted - later.

I'm not casting your dd as a 'liar' - i don't think that quite applied to children of this age. If it does, my DS is a 'liar'. But what he does is put facts together in different ways, sometimes merge his imagination with the real world, etc. All normal at 4.5.

The nursery teacher may well have held her shoulder - I wouldn't think that alone would be unusual when managing chikdren - but honestky i think if she had held your child hard enough to cause sore scratches, your dd would have cried at the time, and been upset enough to tell you after nursery.

DS actually incurred a black eye in a fall on playground equipment in his reception class - and was so engrossed that he didn't cry or tell staff, until his horrified teacher saw what had happened when they were lining up! Staff can't be expected to witness every split-second glancing blow!

Agree with Blu. DS2 always thinks he has to answer- often his made up answer is very transparent "the big hungry bear did it", but other times it can take more digging to find out that he doesn't actually know. And mine do get covered in bruises and scratches all the time without anyone noticing. Yesterday ds1 was sitting down outside, lifted his foot and he had a big gouge out of the bottom of it. I have no idea how he got it, and it looked like it should have hurt.

School rang us once to ask about bruising on ds1's collar bones (protecting themselves I think). Again I had no idea how he got them - although I had noticed them myself.

DS1 recently came back from school with a very big, long scratch on his neck. It had been noticed at school and they had just put in a note saying another child had been cuddling him, and that ds1 hadn't seemed to notice. It is easy to get scratched by other children.

As I said before DD often comes away from playing (not just at nursery) without anyone, including herself, that she has incurred a scratch or bruise. I think at this age, when the supervision thing is more lax to prepare them for school, etc. it is impossible for staff to witness every incident, especially when the child doesn't comment on it at the time.

hmm, I hate to say this but it is probably very different with boys tbh. I can think of very few 4 year old girls of my acquaintance who would receive two long, red scratches that still look sore some hours later without an adult in the room noticing. I would be very surprised. Bruises are different.
and I speak as an aunt to seven nieces, of varying degrees of tomboyishness (and five nephews, for comparison )

But my 4yo IS a girl! And not a very boisterous, tomboy type one either. Mind you, she is clumsy so maybe she just doesn't notice scratches and things now as she is so used to it!

Well I suppose it depends on the child. I spent my childhood up trees and in dens, so presumably came back with quite a few scratches.

My dad says ds2 and ds3 are far louder than he remembers me being with my friends.

Ds1 is quite gentle, and shudders if other children go near him, certainly doesn't engage in physical boyish play with other children, but still manages to get bruised and scratched. Mainly I think from climbing. It's easily done.

ha ha hula x-posted I was going to say "well hula's dd must be a tomboy then" but I thought from things you have written about her that she is quite girly.

Yes, this is the little girl who will be dressed from head to toe in pink or princess dresses, with silver sandles and glitter in her hair - but still manage to have a tumble, trap her hand, brush against something pickly...all whilst looking like a very girly girl! She is also very pigeoned toed (like her daddy!) which contributes!

Half her photos we have done, where she is wearing skirts or dresses, shows bruises and/or cuts and scratches onher legs!

Why is everyone doubting the child? She could be telling the truth!

What was the manner and demeanour of the Nursery nurse when questioned Leah4?

and what are your instincts with regard to this nursery nurse. Have you always liked her, or have you always felt a degree of wariness?

Yes mine is a girlie-girl too but about once a week she will start limping because she's got some huge thorn or cut on her foot or leg from arsing around in the garden ... ! And she comes home from nursery occasionally with bruises and scratches on her - but then she will get the same sort of scratches at home from cuddles from her baby sister!

Remember that if you make this formal then your nursery teacher will be suspended while enquiries are taking place. In the situation you are describing, where your daughter is happy and where there are no other reasons to worry, I would not pursue this. In all honesty, even if I was concerned, I would probably find another nursery before risking someone's whole career in this sort of situation.

I also think it's important to look at the overall picture - she is happy at nursery and whatever stories she comes home with ("so-and-so threw x at me!") I know that if there were any problems then she wouldn't be happy.

I am not doubting the child as such, just stating that it is important to get the full story first. Once a complaint is made there is no going back. And it could jepordise a nursery teacher's career to have such a complaint against her - I would want to make sure I had the full story before I took it so formally. Also pointing out thats ometimes the full story isn't there, and these things do happen at nursery and schools without people noticing, including the child themselves.

yes not to be taken lightly - possibly blighting someone's career, but on the other hand don't think Leah's dd can simply be dismissed as over imaginative either. If the Nursery Nurse did do this, what about all the other children in her care too?

Naturally proceed with caution, but sweep under carpet and ignore - certainly not.

Sorry that wasn't a post directed at your's immediately beneath it Hulababy - just general comment

Mind you - cards on the table - I have a slightly jaundiced perspective of Nurseries. My dd didn't enjoy hers, and it was a factor in me giving up work and becoming a SAHM

HMC Leah's daughter was very happy and had to be questioned several times before coming up with an explanation. Leah said she has never had an incident like this before.

She was then taken before the teacher and asked to accuse her of hurting her - it sounds as though she was very confused and probably a tad upset about causing a major situation involving adults she respected arguing with each other!

We all have small children so we know how confused they can get when asked about things which happened in the past - especially about the sequences of actions.