Warning to anyone with a child at nursery

[Heffalumpspots]

Hi - I haven't posted on here before. I had a difficult pregnancy a couple of years ago, and lurked a lot and got a lot of reassurance from hearing what other people were going through but never got up the courage to post. However, we are in a terrible situation at the moment and I just need to try to let other parents know what can happen.

My daughter is now 27 months, and has been at a local day nursery two days a work for nearly a year. The nursery lost a manager through no fault of its own last summmer, and since then there has been no stable management. This had obviously been a matter of concern for us, but as it takes a long time to settle our daughter into a new environment and the staff seemed interested and caring we decided to leave her there. I wish, with every bone in my body, I could go back and change that decision.

Last week, a temporary nursery manager reported us to police and social services because our daughter had bruising on her body. They were small bruises, around her hips. The previous evening she had attempted to climb out of the bath, and I had grabbed her to stop her falling on the bathroom floor, and although I am not sure I remember seeing any marks at the time, the bruises are a fingerprint pattern where I caught her. The bruises were never anything other than brown/green/yellow and after less than 5 days had largely faded away.

The nursery manager made the decision to report this without so much as asking us how the bruising had been caused. She did not even wait to speak to me when I collected my daughter, despite knowing that the police would have contacted me. There is no deputy manager, and so far as I could gather in my very distressed state the member of staff who was left to meet me had had no involvement in the report.

As a result of this, we had police and social services turn up on our doorstep and demand that we take our daughter, immediately (at 6.30 in the evening), to a children's hospital which is over half an hour's drive from our home. There was noone there to examine her, and we had to return for well over an hour of examination and cross-examination the following day. We had been lead to believe, by police and social services, that this would be the end of the matter, but once we were in the examination it became apparent that once this process is triggered, it will inevitably take a number of weeks. We have no guarantee that our daughter will not be taken away from us, and even if it is concluded that no action needs to be taken against us this will remain on police and social services files for ever.

The effect of this on our little family is all just devastating. We are finding it very hard to keep going. I had very bad depression 5 or 6 years ago, which had not been a problem at all in the past few years, but I'm now constantly fighting a sense of absolute panic. I'd also worked hard to start to rebuild a career, and am left with no childcare and no idea how I am meant to trust my child to any kind of childcare again.

However, the things I wanted to let other people know - and which I wish to God I had known, are:

• I have no idea how much 'spin' there has been in what we have been told, but there certainly seems to be a view that in any case where a child has bruises on their torso then all of this is justified. If that is the case, please, please don't send your child to nursery if they have any bruises on their torso - or if they could develop them. I didn't actually see my daughter's bruises in the morning before she went to nursery: I was dressing her half in the dark, and they could have developed later anyway.

• If you have any concerns at all about nursery management, please, please get your child away from that setting. It doesn't matter how good the staff are, this kind of thing is always something which is decided by the manager. And it doesn't matter how they reached their judgement, because they are a 'nursery manager' the police are automatically involved when they make a report to social services.

• If you find yourself in this awful situation, don't let yourself be strung along by police and social services giving the impression that all you need to do is let your child be examined. That is only the start of a process which will inevitably be hanging over you for weeks. From some of the information online, it seems as if we actually had a right to have a lawyer in the examination with us - we are going to take legal advice in the next few days.

Had we known the nature of the process we were engaged in, we would have insisted on doing that upfront. I am just hoping we don't live to regret, for all eternity, not having done so.

My comment was not directed at anyone personally, just adding to the discussion as I am Bored Beyone Belief as housebound (and care deeply about CP issues too)

I think it is important to remember how very horrible it is for the care worker who has to put the report in. I have been in tears on more than one occasion after putting a report in, as it is not nice, and as a parent it is hard to remain professional and detached. The child in question is 2years old, so very vulnerable, and likely unable to say anything particularly meaningful or reassuring to the nursery staff.

We do not know the full facts of this case, and the OP is notable in her absence. There could be any number of back stories or details, and to speculate would be wrong.

I'm not being facetious or making light of the situation.

Seriously IF you had been beating your child and the nursery had approached you and asked you if you had you would have said No. Just like the majority of those who DO abuse their children.

As I said in my original post I'm sure you can explain the situation to those trained to investigate.

Yes in your shoes I'd be angry BUT I hope I'd see the bigger picture- for every innocent person asked to account for unusual injuries to their child they may be able to identify those that aren't do innocent.

If it was your neighbours child or a distant relatives child would you be as angry?

As an experienced childcare professional, that advice really worries me too, coconutty
The only parents that do that are they ones with something to hide. it's classic abusive parent behaviour to keep them off nursery or school when they have bruises and injuries that cannot be easliy explained.
I think the nursery have been quite hasty but obviously we don't have the full picture.
As a one-off injury, the very least that should ahve happened is for a record made of the injury and for the parents to be asked about it at pick-up time.
It may be that the nursery have otherprevious concerns that have not been reported to SS, only internally.

The hospital thing has been puzzling me too. Social services and police would have ensured their was someone there to see them. There are several things that do add up, and I would appreciate it if the OP would return.

They have to err on the side of caution and I'm glad they do - that said it does seem an ott reaction for a first incident.

Did you not report the bruising to staff when you dropped her off? The nursery that my dd2 goes to asks you to let them know about any existing injuries when you drop the child off. DD2 is forever getting into scrapes, she's a climber and has no fear. It's really rare for her not to be bruised, but I've always made a point of showing her key worker and explaining how it happened.

I'm sorry this is happening to you, but the nursery obviously felt that they had a duty to report and, whilst you are clearly innocent of any wrongdoing, some parents aren't. They don't as a rule discuss with parents first as it would be very easy to explain deliberate injuries away.

I wasnt sure Valium and was just clarifying so hope I didnt come across as snarky.

YY to the hospital.
Because if there was sufficient concern to instigate an assessment without first alerting the parents AND to involve the police, why were they sent to a hospital and then home again without an medical?

I am not saying this couldnt happen. But it all seems a bit unbalanced. They were either deeply concerned or they were not.

Losing you may not have meant to be but that is what it looked like. No CP investigation is going to start and end in the way you describe.

Even in very serious cases the parents can be involved right from the beginning. Because until certain orders are made parents do not have to do ANYTHING.
They can refuse a medical, they can refuse to co-operate.

It is in the best interests of everyone to keep the parents involved. It saves time and money.

I do agree with being vigilent and cautious.

But I dont think being OTT in CP matters isnt helpful to anyone. It breeds resentment and people will not report 'just in case'.

Things have to be done properly. In the cases where children have died it isnt always because things have been ignored. It doesnt work like that.

Most of the children are known to SS and have had numerous reports made.

Going only by the OP's description (because at the moment that is all we have) if that happened to me I would be beside myself and too right I would be angry.

This all seems very strange. I make a referral to child protection services about once or twice a month, and 2 things are pretty clear: firstly that if there is the slightest possibility of abuse/neglect then a referral should be made. SS make it fairly simple by effectively removing the choice from the person making the referral. Because protocols are so clear it makes it a no brainer for me. I don't consider it my decision whether a child (or in my work a baby or unborn baby) is at risk. I have a list of criteria and if one applies or might apply then I refer. It is a social worker's job to make the decision about whether and how much to pursue it. Sometimes I use my judgement to re-refer if a case is closed immediately, but I would never use my judgement to not refer.

Secondly the parents are always informed, unless they are a considered a genuine flight risk. I have never not told the parent that I am making the referral. It is considered extremely bad practice not to inform them. If the nursery made a referral and didn't tell the parents, that's pretty shoddy.

I also disagree with the nursery manager who said she would speak to the parents and then decide whether to refer. I don't think anyone other than social services should be making that decision to be honest. Abusive parents can be incredibly clever and manipulative - see babyp etc.

OP it soundly very badly handled, and the business with the hospital appointment sounds very odd, but I can't criticise the nursery for making the referral in the first place. I could understand you complaining about the process, but not really the referral. My advice would also be to engage with the service. Fighting the system prolongs it and probably doesn't look good.

I hope it's all sorted for the best for you. I do understand how upsetting it all must be.

No worries mrsdevere I know you well enough to know you are not snarky, and greatly respect your experience.

The nursery manager should have spoken to you about the bruises, and asked you how they occurred.
If she was unhappy with your explanation, then she should have told you so, and have indicated that she would be making a child protection referral.

Social services receive a high number of referrals each day, hence tend not to investigate an incident like this unless they feel that injuries sustained are or may not be fully consistent with the explanation given.

So, whilst the nursery handled things rather clumsily, I think your 'warning' is actually quite unhelpful.

Safeguarding procedures are there to keep children safe from harm and neglect, not to piss off parents. Sadly, though, to achieve the former, the latter often is a given.

Thank you Valium

Thank you also to whatinthewhatnow
You have said what i was trying to say but much better.

Its really not about ignoring possible signs of abuse but there are important procedures to follow.

SS gets a lot of stick for redtape but procedures have been developed for good reasons and IMO things tend to go wrong when they are not followed - not when they are.

I have been trying to hold it together, and get legal advice. I haven't read through all of the comments, quite frankly because it would be too distressing to do so. I can only reiterate that I find the way in which this all operates - and the attitude of many of the childcare professionals - utterly terrifying.

Children need to be protected, but so do their families. I'm not suggesting for a moment that this is an easy balance to be struck, but the extent to which the current system fails to do so is quite frankly appalling. I wonder what proportion of reports are of innocent families? And what proportion of those the families break up as a result, or the parents battle with ill health or depression, or worse?

I will respond to a few of the comments which I had seen.

• I didn't say anything to the nursery about the bruises simply because I hadn't seen them. The accident happened around 12 hours before I dressed her the following morning, and I dressed her in the semi-dark. I almost always kiss her tummy when I am dressing her, so I'm about 65% sure that the bruises hadn't actually developed at that point (35% just that I didn't see them). There was nothing in her reaction to the incident (or at any time since) to suggest that she had been seriously injured. At the time I was just so, so relieved that she hadn't smashed her head on the bathroom floor.

• There have been no other cases that I am aware of where my daughter has bruises on anything other than her legs (although there are lots of them). She does, however, have a small greenish blue birthmark at the base of her spine, which may have been mistaken for one. No concerns have ever been raised with us before. She has at times been utterly miserable at the nursery (part of what makes this all so awful) - but that's because she's never liked going there. She used to complain when she went, and cheer up when she was collected.

• Given I don't see lots of children's bruises, I have no idea whether she bruises easily or not. One of her grandfathers definitely does. Part of the examination was blood tests to identify potential causes for easy bruising: part of the reason why we have to wait now is for the result of those tests.

• It seems clear that there was a serious breakdown in communication and procedure when we were dragged to the hospital with there then being no-one there to see us. When we were seen the following day, the consultant recommended to the social worker that they should make a complaint against the hospital trust.

• The lawyer we saw this afternoon said that everything we had said indicated that as soon as they saw our daughter's bruises, the police and social worker knew that it was likely to be a case of over-reporting, but that they would still have been obliged to follow procedure. He did also confirm that we could have insisted on having someone in the examination: if anyone reading this ever finds themselves in this situation, please, please at least remember that.

• I am not for a moment suggesting that anyone should put a child into an environment where there are not safeguarding procedures in place. I am suggesting that if you have any concerns about your child's environment, get them out as soon as you can, and that given the role that managers play in a lot of the procedures that parents often simply don't understand, you can't risk a badly managed situation. God willing, we get out of this in one piece, I will be sending my daughter to a different nursery - she's getting to the age where she needs that kind of interaction with other children, and we'd had serious concerns about the old one's ability to provide her with what she needed in any event. It's likely to be a lot more expensive and lot less convenient for me, and I'm likely to be having kittens every second that she's there. I'm also going to have to put a lot more effort into making sure that she's happy and settled. But if I have confidence in the set-up as a whole, and know that I've put her in the best place I can find, at least I will have some faith in the process which I'm on the receiving end of.

• I'm also not suggesting that bruises should be concealed. If, as seems to be the case, there is serious concern that bruises on a child's hips mean that they could have internal injuries, I think what I suggested was that the parent take the child to the doctor.

I have to go now to see my daughter, who has been with her grandparents, and try not to cry. She keeps coming up and asking 'what's the matter, Mummy?' and 'Mummy happy now?", which only makes it worse.

Hi

i take my ds to sure start centre where he is looked after by creche workers while i do my first aid course. Twice i have been asked about a little mark on the side of his head. I have explained that his sister who is 3.5 scratched him. I hear all these horror stories of good parents being put through the system because someone decides that your account of an accident is not correct. Anyone who has 2 very young children will know that hair get pulled, they push, scratch etc. What really annoyed me was that the first nursery worker who asked me was stood next to the lady you asked me again a week later. I felt as if they where trying to catch me out!!!! I have signed up for another course in september - i did think about it at first but i have not done anything wrong so why worry!!!

If you do get time, you might find it helpful to read the thread OP

It isnt as bad as you might think.

I agree that they way things have been handled is poor.

I think everyone put in your situation would feel utterly distraught. However they feel they would deal with it.

I hope things get resolved asap. Although I think the nursery has a duty to report any concerns, if I am honest I would also want to remove my child.

Thank you for coming back OP. I hope the situation is soon resolved, and hope you have a lovely evening with your daughter. Did the blood tests reveal anything?

Am now v worried as my ds went to nursery today with a bad graze on his arm which I didn't tell them about - is it true you have to tell them about every bruise & graze otherwise they could spark off an investigation?

I know it's on his arm vs torso, but really do you have to tell them everything? Quite often they are so busy (& junior) that there is no communication between us at all other than me pushing & pushing to have a proper account of his day rather than 'oh he was fine' or 'I wasn't on earlier I don't know what he was doing today' . Not conducive to me over sharing surely?

A graze on an arm sounds like a normal DS kinda thing, so I wouldn't worry, just mention it when you go in perhaps.

No it isnt true.

Personally I would mention certain things but I do that out of courtesy (sp) rather than fear.

My boys (specially the youngest atm) is always getting injured. I let them know if he has a knock or a bruise or a cut so they are aware and dont worry that he has done it at nursery.

If he had a black eye or a burn I would discuss it with them in a bit more detail. That is just sensible IMO.

OP - Thanks for coming back. I do hope you get it sorted.

Meglet - I did say that they did the book as a special request for my DS because he has communication issues (sometimes he will chat away othertimes he will not speak) so they agreed to do it to help me.

But, at 27 months, that should be standard. My DD is 2 and they do it for her (which is what gave me the idea to do it for my DS too)

When some one thinks abuse could be happening it should be reported straight away. This is not accusing the parents because the nursery worker does not know who else the child sees. There could be times when the child is left with family, friends or baby sitters. Abuse can happen without the parents knowing. You are not being acussed but your child is being protected.

double
here is the policy at the nursery i work at, to give you an idea of what happens.
When a child arrives at nursery and an injury is noticed on them we fill in a form called an incident form. This is different to an accident form that is filled in for acidents that happen at the nursery.
The form is filled in and the parents are asked to sign it at pick up and filed away, the same as the accident forms.
Nursery staff are used to seeing children arrive with all sorts of accidents and injuries. We certainly don't report every one to social services- that would be a full time job in itself.
Only when there is serious cause for concern would a referral be made and certainly not for a normal graze on the arm.
The incident forms can then be used as evidence.
Nursery staff are at the front line when it comes to safeguarding issues as they get close contact with children that other professionals don't have. Most safeguarding officers are very experienced and have extra training in the area, and have guidelines to follow.

whatinthewhatnow I am the nursery manager that your referring to, of course it's down to social services to investigate and identify if a child is being abused but it's part of my role to make a judgement on wether to refer or not otherwise I would be calling social services numerous times a day.

Of course I am aware that abusive parents can be extremely manipulative. For this reason in some cases it is necessary to make the referal without informing the parents,especially in cases where the bruising may indicate sexual abuse.

OP I hope it all gets sorted out soon for you I am sorry that you are horrified by some of the posts but I would be more horrified if a nursery did not follow sensible safeguarding guidlines.

I mentioned in an earlier post that referrals are not always through the nursery manager so it may not be don to shoddy management. I think that your childs key worker should have discussed the issues with you.

It seems that you were not happy with the nursery anyway so looking for something that is more suitable for you and your dp would be the better option.

I think instead of warning parents not to send their children to nursery with bruises it would be more beneficial to raise awareness of the importance of eading and understanding the policies of your childs care provider. I have lost count of the number of parents who moan about having to read the policies and sign to acknowledge that they have recieved copies etc.

op even if you had taken her to gp yourself, he/she could have still reported it to ss. I took dd to gp when we were posted in Germany so he was a British doctor but he advised me that the ss may be in touch.

I had taken her with a split frenulum on her top lip. She had climbed up the back of my dining chair and slipped and hit her lip but the gp said that is what happens when someone hits a child with a sideways hand across the face. I was heartbroken they thought I could have done this but I just explained what had happened and nobody contacted me further. Had they done so, I'm sure I would have been horrified because it was so innocent but understandable from a HP point of view. They can't just ignore stuff.

I had received and read the policy documents. To someone who had never dealt with this before, they were utterly meaningless. As I said before, I am naturally a very cautious person. Had I known that the very bland, formulaic words effectively meant this, I'm not sure that I would have signed up to it (although I may have had to). I would have looked very hard for an alternative to leaving my family exposed to this horror.

I have been trying very, very hard to fight to find a way through that will limit the immense harm it is causing to all of us. Given my daughter's age, I know that means I basically have to accept that within the next 6-9 months she will start spending time at a nursery again, as otherwise she will miss out. I have therefore been trying as hard as I can to try to convince myself I can live with that outcome, and the outcome of pacing around all night and trying as hard as I can to find a way through is what I set out above.

I have been trying as hard as I can to be coherent and measured in what I have said - the responses have made what was always going to be difficult nigh on impossible. To be honest, my instinct is to tell people to do all they can to keep children away from nurseries - I knew that wasn't the right thing to do, but I felt and still do feel that other people needed to know that this could happen, in this way. The experience of the last week says to me that children may be 'safe' in a formal setting, but the family essentially has a gun pointed at its head that it probably doesn't even know is there until it's all too late.