Warning to anyone with a child at nursery

[Heffalumpspots]

Hi - I haven't posted on here before. I had a difficult pregnancy a couple of years ago, and lurked a lot and got a lot of reassurance from hearing what other people were going through but never got up the courage to post. However, we are in a terrible situation at the moment and I just need to try to let other parents know what can happen.

My daughter is now 27 months, and has been at a local day nursery two days a work for nearly a year. The nursery lost a manager through no fault of its own last summmer, and since then there has been no stable management. This had obviously been a matter of concern for us, but as it takes a long time to settle our daughter into a new environment and the staff seemed interested and caring we decided to leave her there. I wish, with every bone in my body, I could go back and change that decision.

Last week, a temporary nursery manager reported us to police and social services because our daughter had bruising on her body. They were small bruises, around her hips. The previous evening she had attempted to climb out of the bath, and I had grabbed her to stop her falling on the bathroom floor, and although I am not sure I remember seeing any marks at the time, the bruises are a fingerprint pattern where I caught her. The bruises were never anything other than brown/green/yellow and after less than 5 days had largely faded away.

The nursery manager made the decision to report this without so much as asking us how the bruising had been caused. She did not even wait to speak to me when I collected my daughter, despite knowing that the police would have contacted me. There is no deputy manager, and so far as I could gather in my very distressed state the member of staff who was left to meet me had had no involvement in the report.

As a result of this, we had police and social services turn up on our doorstep and demand that we take our daughter, immediately (at 6.30 in the evening), to a children's hospital which is over half an hour's drive from our home. There was noone there to examine her, and we had to return for well over an hour of examination and cross-examination the following day. We had been lead to believe, by police and social services, that this would be the end of the matter, but once we were in the examination it became apparent that once this process is triggered, it will inevitably take a number of weeks. We have no guarantee that our daughter will not be taken away from us, and even if it is concluded that no action needs to be taken against us this will remain on police and social services files for ever.

The effect of this on our little family is all just devastating. We are finding it very hard to keep going. I had very bad depression 5 or 6 years ago, which had not been a problem at all in the past few years, but I'm now constantly fighting a sense of absolute panic. I'd also worked hard to start to rebuild a career, and am left with no childcare and no idea how I am meant to trust my child to any kind of childcare again.

However, the things I wanted to let other people know - and which I wish to God I had known, are:

• I have no idea how much 'spin' there has been in what we have been told, but there certainly seems to be a view that in any case where a child has bruises on their torso then all of this is justified. If that is the case, please, please don't send your child to nursery if they have any bruises on their torso - or if they could develop them. I didn't actually see my daughter's bruises in the morning before she went to nursery: I was dressing her half in the dark, and they could have developed later anyway.

• If you have any concerns at all about nursery management, please, please get your child away from that setting. It doesn't matter how good the staff are, this kind of thing is always something which is decided by the manager. And it doesn't matter how they reached their judgement, because they are a 'nursery manager' the police are automatically involved when they make a report to social services.

• If you find yourself in this awful situation, don't let yourself be strung along by police and social services giving the impression that all you need to do is let your child be examined. That is only the start of a process which will inevitably be hanging over you for weeks. From some of the information online, it seems as if we actually had a right to have a lawyer in the examination with us - we are going to take legal advice in the next few days.

Had we known the nature of the process we were engaged in, we would have insisted on doing that upfront. I am just hoping we don't live to regret, for all eternity, not having done so.

It sounds terrifying, not inconvenient, or annoying, absolutely gut shaking horror inducing terrifying... Parents, good parents get v scared indeed when something like this happens, of course they do, they aren't concerned for the greater good (no matter how much they would be normally), they are freaking out because their baby, the most previous thing in their lives, that they love more than life itself, that their previous little one might get ripped away from them. It doesn't matter that this isn't at all likely to happen, it's every parents deepest fear, that their child will be taken away (by anything, not just ss).

It's a GOOD parental instinct to react like this and I HATE this weird discourse that means you are not allowed to question the system, or be scared of the system, unless you have something to hide. Can't anyone want their own child protected from a scary system and other little ones at risk of abuse protected by a system at the same time?

Mumsnet is usually so balanced about things, but anything connected to children's services tends to be less than rational, & certainly less than supportive.

OP it sounds like even if the right process was followed, it was handled insensitively & left you feeling totally subject to an unknown & uncaring system which starts with the premise that you are a potentially abusive mum. This is probably unlike anything that has ever happened to you (& ever will again). You need to work out how to make the panic lessen to get you through this, as going into a spiral of panic & terror won't help your own state of mind, the process or your little one who might well sense it.

Soooo, the first thing I'd do is get legal advice. Understand the process ss are following, & what happens when, & what it means. You will feel much better when you know what's going on.

Second thing you need to do is to focus on your own state of mind & how you want to be seen. You need to get support for you, talk to people you know will feel shocked as you do, & get some reassurance from them. Then work on being calm & collected when talking to ss.

It's really important to be pleasant & calm & answer all their questions as reasonably & seriously as you can. You mention you weren't calm when this all happened, & that's reasonable, but id make an effort to be calm every time you speak to them from now on. And I wonder if you told them you had depression previously? If not I'd advise you not to mention it at all, as you don't want any investigations to develop around you. Not saying it would at all, just being careful.

Are you ok OP? Take care xxx

The reason there are clear guidelines in place for reporting concerns to the appropriate services is because a nursery or other care setting cannot be expected to assess risk as they are not trained to do so. When a report is received by social services, they will check to see if there are any other concerns about the family, including liaison with police, and school, GP etc. Clearly in this case there was sufficient concern to get the child's injuries assessed by the medics, and based on their findings, along with all other information gathered, social services would either take further action or withdraw.

But they ARE supposed to inform the parents before they make a referral unless they have good reason to think doing so would put the child at further risk.

The parents in this case were told to take the child to the hospital and no-one was available to do it. Was this a s.47 medical or was it SS being a bit sneaky and getting a medical in a round about way? That would be wrong IMO.

What makes me angry is not people being careful of CP it is people NOT explaining what is going on, not supporting parents, leaving them in the dark and terrified.

All that does is discourage others from coming forward with concerns.

In my line of work I complete a referral to social services due to child protection issues at least fortnightly. The form I use has a tick box for if you have discussed the issue with the parents or not. I am not aware of the exact policy of this nursery, so perhaps this could be a question that OP could ask, or indeed her solicitor.

On most occasions I do discuss the referral with the parents, but sometimes it is not possible, and in the case of an actual injury, which as previously discussed by a number of other posters is 'suspicious' in its nature, and had not been mentioned at drop off, I fully understand why this was done.

I do, however, think the manager should have stayed to talk to the OP, but it could be that they had other commitments of their own.

I am very concerned that the OP is telling people not to send a child to nursery when they have bruises to a particular area. I also think it is odd that the OP is not actually asking for advice or help, but is 'warning' other parents.

Good post by Valium.
It's not a nice thing to happen. No, let me rephrase, it must be a terrifying and dreadfully upsetting thing to happen, but the OP hasn't come on MN and said "Please hold my hand" or "Can anyone give me some leagal advice". She's talking about "warning" people whose children go to Nursery, and then later advising them to not take their child if they have a bruise. Now that is a different thing altogether, and that is why people are nicely trying to point out that the Nursery has done the right thing, however horrible it is for her and her family at the moment.

I think that is probably because she is angry, frightened and feels betrayed.

People dont tend to think logically in these situations.

The OP has not posted again since the small hours, when she stated she had come here ' to help others and get support'. She has not accepted the general consensus by people who work with children that the Nursery was in the right (her words paraphrased, cannot copy and paste on this, sorry). Her posts are very eloquent and well thought out.

If I thought I was going to lose a child due to an overzealous nursery with a dark cloud overhanging my family for a long time due to a frankly overworked SW who is putting my case low on her priority list, I would not hesitate to warn other parents not to use that nursery (once my case has been settled).

I don't choose a nursery because it has safeguarding policies. That is insane. The safeguarding policies are not for my benefit. They are for other children's benefit because to put it bluntly, as a parent I know I am not going to abuse my child.

I not saying I will choose a nursery with a 'lax' safeguarding policy. I expect that a nursery will have safeguarding policy, and that it will be sensitive, reasonable and proportionate in its implementation of that policy, as in all areas in which it is managed.

Hi, Gosh, yes this must be terrible for you. However, I am just going to reiterate what most OP have been saying. The person who reported this obviously saw the bruising and discussed it with the CP officer at the nursery. These types of bruises are very unusual and are not conducive to accidents. This is why staff reacted this way. Certain bruising is considered 'normal child bruises. i.e. on knees, forehead bumps on limbs. However, no finger print bruising is easily explained. What I imagine the CP officer would have thought is that the child had been held down, for whatever reason. Could be a nappy change that they did not want to have, being caught when falling out the bath, or it could have been something more sinister. If for example the bruises were a result of physical or sexual abuse, the abuser would already have an answer/ explanation for the bruises, however they are unlikely to mention it until they are questioned. They usually have a perfectly innocent situation to hand that they will link to the bruises. Horrid but true. This is why nurseries stress that you inform them of anything up front. I know you said that you were unaware of the bruises, and this could have caused further concern for the nursery. It would have been a tough call for the nursery; they would not have done it lightly. The last thing the nursery wants to do is ruin the relationship between families and staff, however safeguarding comes first.

However, SS does seem to be acting in a very strange way. I do not know what Local Authority you?re in, but they do not seem to be acting in a way that I recognise in my LA. As people have said, do keep calm from now on. Be more than accommodating, they really do not want to take your child off you, it requires far too much paperwork and costs the system soooo much money. Ask SS about the processes, they have to keep you informed as to what is happening. IT will get sorted, and it will cloud your judgement of SS forever more. However if over reacting saves more children then it is worth it, unfortunately it those wrong reported that have to deal with it. Good luck.

NB: always ask for the safeguarding policy, I give a copy to my parents at induction and they have to sign to state that they agree with it.

Speak to the parents? Like this?
"did you beat your child"
"no"
"ok ta'

Your situation is crap and stressful but BUT BUT I'm sure you can reassure whoever investigates that it was accidental.

Thank God there are vigilant responsible carers out there prepared to take responsibility for those children who's injuries aren't accidental.

Arm is different to torso. The police would not have supported the trip to the hospital had it not been a legal request.

Exactly Valium. Nurseries expect bruises to arms and legs but the torso is more unusual

The nursery definitely should have spoken to the parents first! Sometimes children get bruised and often there is a reasonable explanation. Safeguarding does not mean assuming every child is being abused.

No Losing that isnt how you speak to the parents.
You can be as facetious as you like.
It doesnt change the guidence.
That is legal guidence, not just a friendly hint btw.

I am working with the most vulnerable of children. If I suspect an issue, unless I had VERY good reason not to, I would be required to express my concerns to the parents. I would then inform them of my decision to take the matter further.
Unless it put the child in danger that is what I am supposed to do.

Losing, your example is just silly. You are making light of a very serious situation.

Thanks OhDo, I am glad that there are reasonable professionals out there who engage their brain on child protection without losing themselves in post baby P hysteria.

It is never going to be easy and I would always have to err on the side of caution.
That is why I am the first to defend social workers on bashing threads.

But the idea that people should just suck it up because it will all turn out ok in the end is ridiculous.

I know procedure, I am passionate about CP but if my DC's nursery behaved in this way I would be devastated.

I am not sure I would ever get over it tbh.

Sometimes jumping in too quick is the result of lazy safeguarding, not robust and well thought out policies.

But surely it is not the Nurserys fault? Had the report been ridiculously petty, then surely Social Work and police would not have acted so quickly?

I am didnt use those words valium (apologies if your post is directed at someone else)

I am not saying their concerns were petty. I was not there, I didnt see the bruises and I dont know the family involved.

SS have a duty to respond to a report from a nursery. If the nursery reported serious concerns re NAI SS are obviously going to react quickly.

The fact remains that they should always keep the family involved and informed. Unless it would be dangerous to do so.

Thank you, OhDo.

I agree with everything you just said, both wearing your child protection as well as parental hat.

So true about lazy safeguarding. Why should good sense and decency fly out the window when it comes to child protection? It is not guilty until proven innocent. The most egregious cases of child abuse happened despite many many chances for child protection agencies to pick up the signs and intervene.

Chances are, it is hardly going to be the next Baby P just because the nursery 'tipped the parents off' and spoke to them first. If anything, it will make the parents more aware of their actions and vigilant in spotting bruises.

Valiumqueen, the fact that social services acted quickly is the least it could do, particularly if the parents are innocent. You do not want this matter to be resolved quickly if you were the OP?

I am not sure how it works in other LAs but here there was an allegation of physical abuse an appt would be made with a pead for a CP medical.

They wouldnt be told to go to the hospital. That all sounds a bit odd. Particularly as no one was able to examine the child.

How could a child be sent to a hospital and no doctor to be present to examin them?
Doesnt sound very good practice.

Surely if there was so much concern (the reason why the nursery couldnt discuss with the family) this would have given them the perfect opportunity to do a runner or hurt the child again - as they didnt have to present until the following morning?

It all sounds a bit of mess tbh.