"Autism is a difference not a disability"

[MJCadman]

Do you agree!

I personally don't. I hate it.

I think it minimises how hard life is.

Also dislike "Autism is my Superpower, what's yours"?

I don't want to normalise autism. I want people to understand it and make allowances.

I know this isn't what everyone else wants. This is the Neurodiverse MN board. I'm not talking about having kids with it. My daughter has it and of course I want her to be seen like the rest of her friends. I just mean for me personally I do want people to know I think differently. I can't have it both ways. One way for me and one for my child.

The problem with what you’re saying is, is no autistic person is the same.

so while what you have written may work for some, it equally will not work for others, and it’ll vary for others too.

one thing is some autistics hate the music in shops, but others (eg me) need the music in shops otherwise they can’t concentrate. I find the music drowns out all the talking and the buzzing of the fridges. Or at least I can concentrate on the music and not on the other noise.

im not sure whether it’s this type of music you call piped music. But I first interpreted it as music from piped instruments. So my first thought was, why would you make bagpipes illegal 😂 I love a well played bagpipe.

and the whole autism wouldn’t be a disability if the world was set up for us. Yes for some it wouldn’t, but I would definitely still be disabled if the world was set up for autistic people. I would hardly be able to interact with others, and typing stuff being more acceptable wouldn’t work for me, as my brain often just cannot function with someone over the phone or in person. And honestly I cannot be doing with live chat or emails in many circumstances.

and another example, many people are like oh all school and uni work should be coursework it’d be so much easier for everyone. Honestly, I can’t cope with coursework at all, it does not work for me on any level. I’m pretty good at written exams, I don’t know why, but I was always weirdly good at them 😂

and all this working from home or studying at home, doesn’t work for me either. To be fair I can’t cope with paid work at all, I need a very flexible, very low pressure type of setup, in person, but also one where I only need to interact with people when I want and in a specific way. If I had a work at home job or a study at home one, nothing would get done at all. I have tried studying at home and it’s really not for me, it’s not a thing I can do.

anyway, my point is even in an autistic world many autistics would still be disabled, whether a wee bit less so, at a similar level or even more disabled. And what about other disabilities, that don’t fit with a nice quiet autistic world 😂 including ones the autistics themselves have 😂

I know it’s just musing but the whole in an autistic world, autistics wouldn’t be disabled (or less disabled) is just as annoying as the whole it’s a difference not a disability thing.

im not sure whether it’s this type of music you call piped music. But I first interpreted it as music from piped instruments. So my first thought was, why would you make bagpipes illegal 😂 I love a well played bagpipe.

"Piped music" means the music played in shops and other public places. I like bagpipes too, in the right place (outdoors, about 100m away).

If there's no music, you can always put on headphones, with the noise cancellation turned off, to play your choice of music quietly and still hear safety-critical sounds like approaching pallet trucks. If there's piped music, I can't safely make that go away because wearing noise-cancelling headphones in public spaces is likely to result in me being run over by a Tesco shelf-stacker pushing a roll cage.

I agree that some things can't be accommodated for; my list is of accommodations that could be made and would, together, make a difference for most of us. No one is harmed by indoor sunglasses becoming acceptable.

it's location

Now I want to stage a commando raid on Mumsnet's servers so I can remove that incorrect apostrophe from "its".

You're right, I did :) That mimics my own thoughts on these things.

I've worked from home for about 15 years now, possibly more. In one company, my boss decided that we should try to simulate "being in the office", and the best way to do that was to have a Zoom meeting running all day, and our cameras had to be on the whole time. The result of that? Aside from ridiculously slowing down our computers, I just had to keep fielding bullshit prompts from him, because I barely move while I'm sitting at my desk - my expression doesn't change, and I don't fidget or move around. At one point, he wanted me to change my camera angle so he could see my hands on the keyboard (in a job paying the equivalent of £80k/year now, as a 40yr old...being treated like a workshy intern). That kind of betrayed the real reason he was doing it. I quit shortly afterwards.

now I can’t tell if this is awkward on my part, but headphones of any type are a total no go for me due to sensory issues. I just can’t do it at all. I can’t do the earphones with the wee silicone bits that stick in your ears either. I do have normal AirPods but the vast majority of the time I can’t cope with them either 😂

and you say your choice of music this is another way that’s potentially me being awkward. Is that I rarely have a choice of music. My brain chooses songs, sometimes I listen to the same song over and over again, until my brain goes nope can’t do that one anymore. I rarely choose music because my brain doesn’t really accept a choice of music. It needs absolutely random shite tbh.

and I can’t cope with headphones etc anyway 😬😬

I hope you understand. In your reply it sounds like you think I can sort my issue with headphones, whereas you cannot sort your issue, so music needs to be eliminated in shops etc.

it shows how an autistic designed world is very very complicated as some autistics need somethings and other don’t, and this varies with literally anything.

It can feel like a disability in a neurological world. But not sure if it is otherwise.

Care labels would be on the outside!

Having a variety of shops . Or shops that do something on different days or Quiet Asda (if there is more than one in an area)...(More than a fucking token hour to shop in quiet early morning when you can't organise getting up or sleep because of autistic kids)

Variety is key.

Oh yes definitely!

I think ‘slots’ some an hour, some 2-3 and some maybe 4+. At different times of day on different days. So maybe, a 3 hour quiet time on a Tuesday evening, then another mid day Thursday. And then maybe some on a Friday morning, and definitely at least one 3 hour slot on a weekend. Maybe one day a week all day quiet, or even two days.

a good variety of ‘slots’ at different times, different days, good length of time.

this helps everyone. As an hour one morning a week, is frankly largely a waste of time, yes it may suit some people. But some people may want to spend longer than an hour in the shop, others may only be able to go at the weekend, or in the afternoon etc.

obviously it may be a bit awkward for more spontaneous trips, say if you need quiet time but you want or need to go on a Tuesday morning when the quiet time is Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday or whatever, when you usually go at one of these times. Obviously going both ways.

i think they should have at least a third of opening times quiet, getting up to half if possible.

I hate it too. And the idea that there is no such thing as low functioning autism. My son is non verbal, still in nappies and regularly tries to kill himself by eating stones and other things. I think I have autism too and am going on the waiting list, but Iunlike him I could read and shit in a potty at two! Of course there is a bloody difference in functioning within ASD. Yes I get that burnouts and meltdowns are completely disabling (going through what I feel is one has prompted me to get diagnosed), but my son is like how he is every minute he is awake. He can't do anything for himself at all. It is not a super power for him and he is low functioning.

I think the widespread objection to the term "low-functioning" has been explained badly and widely misunderstood.

First, read this short cartoon.

The terms "high-functioning" and "low-functioning" are an even worse variant of that linear concept of "autistic spectrum" that the cartoon debunks. Those terms go beyond implying a linear spectrum and imply a binary, that either you are "high-functioning" and can be left to get on with life or you are "low-functioning" and will be lucky to ever get out of nappies or speak. The reality is that support needs can only be meaningfully assessed on a per-person basis because someone might need lots of support with some areas of life but little or none in other areas of life.

It is absolutely the case that some autistic people will need lifelong support with most aspects of their lives. "Low-functioning" isn't the best term to describe them.

It is also absolutely the case that some people will be able to work with reasonable adjustments. "High-functioning" isn't the best term to describe them. I am anything but "high-functioning" when in the middle of a meltdown or when I become mute mid-sentence because I cannot find the words for the pictures and concepts in my head.

I am coming from the POV as someone who is able enough to hold down work, but still feel so many challenges and like my life is harder than a neurotypical.

I am late diagnosed ADHD, and strongly identify with autistic traits, I have one brother who was diagnosed ADHD as a child but in my mind is definitely autistic and a son just diagnosed with autism. Really, I think most members of my family and my ex husbands family are undiagnosed neurodivergent.

Might be a controversial take here, but from what I witness around me, the hyper empathetic fem presenting autistics struggle more with life than masc presenting autistics that lack empathy.

We end up with comorbid mental health conditions, especially if late or undiagnosed which makes life, relationships, friendships and work really hard.
We care so much about others, we can excuse others bad behaviour because we see them as whole people that may have unresolved childhood trauma or whatever, that it actually can make us quite vulnerable, especially in relationships with masc autistics who lack empathy.

We care when work relationships are off and it affects us in our careers.
The masc presenting autistics just don't care as much about the social stuff and just get on with things, and I think bad behaviour like arrogance and rudeness from men generally of all neurotypes is more tolerated in the workplace, so they get away with it.

I say masc, and I generally mean men, but also masc presenting women. Fem males would generally be on the hyper empathy side.

The whole fem presenting hyperempathic autistics vs masc presenting lack of empathy autistics, thing is overly simplistic and quite frankly very wrong.

yes there is the whole autistic presenting idea that males are more obviously autistic and the traits of autism are based on that view, whereas females present differently and are much harder to identify. While correct in a way, that the stereotypical view of autism is a very young white male thing, it really doesn’t jam with reality, especially the whole empathy thing.

not all females who are autistic are hyper empathetic and not all males who are autistic lack empathy. There is so much more to autism than empathy or lack of. And it’s not even a simply no empathy or too much empathy thing.

my brain is not able to produce more good words but anyway.

I have Aspergers as a diagnosis. I know it’s not referred to but, THAT is my diagnosis.

I wish, wholeheartedly, that I were different. I’m not. I never will be.

I think it sounds like ASD and neurodivergence is being belittled. There are days I wish my life were different. Or over.

I think people who say stuff like that don’t have the sort of troubles that make life extremely difficult…not being able to attend school regularly, not being able to finish university, not being able to have a career that involves leaving the house or interacting with others (aka no career…), not being able to interact with others socially without it being extremely draining, not experiencing panic attacks when someone needs basic information about myself (post code, phone number, etc) and my mind goes blank. In my comfort zone (aka at home where I have control) I’m smart, I’m artistic, I’m highly perceptive, I’m imaginative, yes all of these things are great. But they don’t negate the parts that really have mucked my life up and make it impossible to survive on my own in this world.

Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder by defintion. It is also a disability in the UK by defintion as defined by the DIsability Act. She the below quote from my Autism report, so really that sense in the UK whilst it in covered in law it is not a matter of personal opinion whether it is a disability or not.

Also, there are advantages and disadvantages of autism and we experience it differently. My sensory is probably level 3 at times, tested at moderate in ADOS level 2 but I wasn't in my full mode that day lol. That is a plus to me, but it has an impact as well which I will happily live with and never exchange in the world.

"As Rachel’s difficulties are due to Autism Spectrum Disorder, she should be viewed as having a disability as defined in the Equality Act 2010 and as covered by the Autism Act 2009".

@Justmerach

Did you mean to add your name?

I have 2 boys diagnosed with autism and a 3rd who’s definitely “quirky”. My understanding is that the difference between quirky and a diagnosis of autism is the level of impairment. In order to get a diagnosis you must be impaired which, super powers or not, means a level of disablement?

Clinically-significant impairment is a requirement for a diagnosis, but the key point is that it's not just outward impairment - it's the internal perception and experience that's important.

10 years ago, I would've been regarded as "quirky" by most. Now, I'm very much not; I was just as autistic then as I am now. The only difference is time...when I was younger, I had a lot more energy and motivation with which to hide it (and no clue that I was built differently to most).

My daughter has waited 3 years for her assessment.

I chased it up yesterday. They replied today that she us in the queue to see if she qualifies for an assessment 😲

I hope you manage to get it sorted before she leaves school (I don't think you've mentioned her age). If my experience is anything to go by, she may drop even further down the priority list once she becomes an adult, on the basis that there aren't any state-provided support facilities for autistic adults.

I do wonder if the government's efforts to get waiting lists down include autism and ADHD diagnosis. Far too many of us have been forced to use private diagnostic services, with the subsequent fight to get the NHS to recognise it.

Sorry she is 12 1/2.

I started the process before she started secondary school hoping I'd have an answer by then. I'd have done it earlier but I wasn't as sure when she was younger. Plus I was diagnosed 5 years ago.

Yes praying it's sorted before she starts college.

Very subjective though isn't it 'impairment'. I have 3 adult sons, 2 of whom are definitely quirky, didn't know much about ND when they were kids just accepted that they were a bit different, but neither would have been termed 'impaired' as both exceptionally bright/academic. Now I can see that the difference has made their life difficult in ways that the more NT one does not have problems with. Eg don't have the same level of self awareness or appropriate social interaction/pick up on social cues. Both struggle with some physical things like driving.

Interesting thread which just shows that people with autism are as different to each other as are NT people.

I think autism is both a difference and a disability. My difference disables me in the society I live in. Maybe in another time or another society it wouldn't. But in the here and now it does.

I'm on the fence about the superpower. My husband absolutely believes that his autism is what makes him a brilliant scientist. My autistic daughter has always had languages as a special interest, as a result is fluent in 4, and is now a languages teacher. Then there's me, and I'm not sure that analysing the Radio Times and using it to obsessively watch tv in a ritualised way is a superpower.

The whole "superpower" thing is just as situational as the disability, though.

For example, I'm what they'd call a mathematical and systems prodigy. I can intuit solutions that normies would have to think their way through with logic - that gives me a significant leg-up in my profession as a developer, but also in analysing data with pattern-recognition.

However, put me on a noisy trade floor, and the same data is there to be analysed, but I'd be as useful as a chocolate teapot and would likely just crumple on the ground.

I'd imagine that, for example, you've got pretty decent pattern recognition skills when it comes to scheduling - applied in the right areas, that's not useless ;)

See I don't have any advantage to being autistic. Which is embarrassing as people think you must be clever if you have it. 😂😂