Live webchat with Sue Palmer, author of Toxic Childhood, Wed 17 March, 1-2pm

[GeraldineMumsnet]

We're very pleased to welcome Sue Palmer, author of Toxic Childhood and 21st Century Boys, for a webchat on Wed 17 March at 1pm. She's a timely guest given the MN campaign, Let Girls be Girls.

Sue is a writer and speaker on child development and education. After 15 years as a respected authority on literacy teaching, she published Toxic Childhood: How the Modern World is Damaging Our Children and What We Can Do About It. It helped to spark a national debate about the nature of contemporary childhood.

Since then she has published a handbook for parents on Detoxing Childhood, and 21st Century Boys: How Modern Life Can Drive Them off the Rails and How to Get Them Back on Track.

Sue regularly comments on childhood issues in the national media and London's Evening Standard regularly lists her among London's most influential figures in education (which gives her huge pleasure as she lives in Edinburgh).

The Scotsman has described her as one of the country's "new radical thinkers".

Hope you can join the discussion.

[restlessnative]

Sue - do you have any idea what their attitudes to early childhood are based on? Don't you think you should do some research before recommending Steiner Waldorf education, in other words: anthroposophy?

[madwomanintheattic]

did i spectacularly miss the point then?

[SuePalmer]

Oh, and PS, OpenEYE is not a Steiner Waldorf initiative. The founding group did include some concerned Steiner people (including Richard), but it also included me, a very wonderful Montessorian called Kim, and Margaret Edgington, who I reckon is one of the country's best independent early years consultants.
What we have in common is a real concern about the statutory nature of the EYFS. As a literacy specialist I'm particularly concerned about the literacy targets for five year olds which I believe are fundamentally flawed, and which are skewing practice in settings around the country.
That really is my last word!

[TheRationalist]

Sue, thank you for your reply. I think Montessori is a very real and practical foundation for learning, my concerns are with Steiner education and it seeping into mainstream education under the guise of 'diversity'.

I found a transcript of a talk you gave at the Edinburgh International Book Festival back in 2006, someone asked if you had done any research on Steiner ed: 'That?s what I really admire about Steiner. Their training courses for child care?I?m trying to get my daughter on one'.

I disagree with your assertion that the Open Eye campaign is not a Steiner Waldorf initiative. Over 2/3 of the signatures on the original letter are connected directly to the movement.

If I and others had known this particular educational movement has survivors and critics groups across the world zooey.wordpress.com/links/ we may have been able to make an informed decision before enrolling our children. I feel there is a duty of care from those working and reporting in education that this needs to be seriously looked into as it involves the welfare of children.

[zazizoma]

What a difference from Jim Rose, who presented the success of his granddaughter in the current system as the sole developmental justification for his recommendations.

MNHQ, thank you for arranging this very interesting chat. Even if one does not agree with her, Sue Palmer has demonstrated that she can clearly articulate what she sees and why she's come to her conclusions.

Would it be possible to bring more creative educational thinkers for webchats? I'm tired of hearing from the "Big Boys who run the show" because they don't really listen, though I can only hope that some of what we say gets through.

[restlessnative]

I must say Jim Rose's recommendations have been warmly welcomed by my dd's primary school. They like the increased flexibility and the encouragement to think creatively. In fact they're pretty cheerful about education, which is brilliant for us.

I'd like to see a discussion of the science curriculum. Any ideas?

[sungirltan]

therationalist - with all due respect, steiner is a distinctly alternative education practice. one which may require sufficient research before children are enrolled. you can't really blame anyone because you didn't know enough about it!

[TheRationalist]

Sungirltan, a fair point, I'd have to talk about the history of Steiner discussions on MN (and elsewhere) to illustrate my point, but don't worry I'll keep this short.

Trying to research the philosophy beyond the promotional literature is very difficult - I am told the movement intimidates and threatens legal action to parents, forum moderators and journalists.

If you search the archives you will see most of the posts have been deleted and whole threads have disappeared. Parents are not allowed to talk about what happened to them and their children, so the act of making an informed decision is denied to parents wanting to reassure themselves before enrollment. I was one of those parents, we had moved house to be near the school such was my enthusiasm at the time.

I don't want to turn this into a debate about my concerns about Steiner ed, I only commented on this thread as I saw the post where Sue was advocating Steiner education. I feel that someone in Sue's position has a certain responsibility to also make sure she is making an informed decision before she promotes the Steiner philosophy (also called anthroposophy) on a parenting forum.

My post will probably be deleted, I hope you see this link before it disappears.

ukanthroposophy.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/seminarnotes/

[MathsMadMummy]

That was the first webchat I've followed, really good, thanks MNHQ! Will have to read her books... she seems to have a lot of the same thoughts as me. Wish I'd written a book before her

I particularly share her views on marketing and consumerism/materialism... just wondering if anyone's read Oliver James' books, Affluenza and the follow-up The Selfish Capitalist? Haven't finished them (reading for fun is a long-lost treat) but there are parallels.

[sungirltan]

therationalist - its still there don't panic. i looked at your earlier links and some other stuff that came up on google about the racism concerns - found lots!

i am considering a stenier school near here (mainly because progressive schools are a bit thin on the ground down here) but i stress the word considering as have heard mixed reviews!

[restlessnative]

sungirltan I don't understand why Montessori is considered 'alternative', it's so well-accepted and I gather they're encouraging further, independent research into their practices: good luck to them. Steiner of course isn't 'progressive'. The form of education that describes itself, rightly, as progressive is Democratic Education. Three schools in the UK (one primary) but many more internationally, in the US, Denmark, Sweden... but of course the idea of greater democracy and child-directed learning in schools need not be restricted to distinct Democratic schools. I suspect that's the way to go, and that technology will help make it possible.

Good luck and hope you find what you're looking for.

(I suspect btw, along with plenty of others, that Oliver James will disappear up his own fundament. The less people take him seriously imo the shriller he gets)

And here's the next person mumsnet could invite: Simon Singh! He could talk about the science curriculum AND libelreform, which mumsnet supports. Perhaps he could write a book called: '21st Century Girls: the Eye that Assesses the Data Can Change the World'. Men can 'rock the cradle' just as well as girls.

[sungirltan]

restless- maybe its just me that sees montessori as progressive - simply because there was one attached to the progressive (and extremely democratic) school i grew up in. although i can see the two concepts being a bit juxtaposed - it worked.

[pointydog]

All this talk of 'active learning' is a red herring. There is no definition of 'active learning'. When pushed, those in charge said it meant any activity when the child was engaged and that, yes, it could mean writing something with a pencil if that child was engaged in the task.

[dawntigga]

need this to appear in one lump

SoPostingTiggaxx

[Blindfish]

I'm a grandma and I think some children sometimes have too many supervised activities and what on earth is a "playdate"? I have 6 children and they played out all day and only came in at bedtime or when they were hungry. If it rained they came in with thier mates and made camps in the bedroom. Despite being "ignored" they've all grown into caring, well balanced adults. Why can't we just let our kids get on with being kids.