Live webchat with Sue Palmer, author of Toxic Childhood, Wed 17 March, 1-2pm

[GeraldineMumsnet]

We're very pleased to welcome Sue Palmer, author of Toxic Childhood and 21st Century Boys, for a webchat on Wed 17 March at 1pm. She's a timely guest given the MN campaign, Let Girls be Girls.

Sue is a writer and speaker on child development and education. After 15 years as a respected authority on literacy teaching, she published Toxic Childhood: How the Modern World is Damaging Our Children and What We Can Do About It. It helped to spark a national debate about the nature of contemporary childhood.

Since then she has published a handbook for parents on Detoxing Childhood, and 21st Century Boys: How Modern Life Can Drive Them off the Rails and How to Get Them Back on Track.

Sue regularly comments on childhood issues in the national media and London's Evening Standard regularly lists her among London's most influential figures in education (which gives her huge pleasure as she lives in Edinburgh).

The Scotsman has described her as one of the country's "new radical thinkers".

Hope you can join the discussion.

[ahundredtimes]

and emotionally more literate too - all this talk about bullying and stuff at school. lots of that. Back in the 70s you just got beaten up and nobody talked about empathy

Right, will stop posting on this thread now. Very much looking forward to reading your chat though Sue P - thank you for coming on MN.

[EllieMental]

if I read 21st century boys now (with a 9 yr and 12 yr old,) will it make me very scared and depressed. Is it too late for me?

[Henson]

When I began studying childcare I asked a team of experts at the Institute of Education in London why babies were included in The National Childcare Strategy when there appeared to be no research to justify it. Professor Kathy Sylva and her colleagues confirmed there was a lack of research and assured me that it had been a "purely political decision" by government to include babies.

In my view this has been a mass experiment using babies as human guinea pigs. Since Ofsted has condemned a third of childcare as substandard isn't it time to call a halt?

[houseontopofahill]

I am frankly, a terrible mother. I am 100% guilty of using tv and the computer to keep the kids quiet so I can a) think my own thoughts or b) get anything done.

But I look at the programmes/games and feel utterly depressed - why am I letting this crap shape my children? I would be SO much happier if my children were busy knitting/writing/reading/making mud pies. I feel they're learning how to couch potato instead of participating or being creative. But I don't have the personality or patience required to constantly be with my children, which is what a life without tv/computers seems to need. I've never been one of those wonderful baking types of mother. Also, once the kids have got used to tv/computer how do you withdraw it? Do you have any practical tips on how to change your household habits once the toxic habits are really really ingrained?

I suffer from depression myself and instinctively feel the amount of screen time I give is wrong for my kids. But rubbish weather, lack of money, and my own mood problems can mean that parenting without those props seems like an impossible utopian dream.

[Rhubarb]

I think the difference is that when we were little, yes we were largely ignored by our mothers - I can never remember mine helping out with homework or taking any interest in my schoolwork or hobbies, I was labelled a bookworm because that was my retreat from an emotionally abuse mother, but that's another story. However when we played out all day we made loads of friends and really used our imaginations.

I remember labelling the old Vicarage as a 'haunted house' and the funny mound in the middle became the dog's burial place. The dog died because it slipped on the stairs and ran into an ornamental sword. Our stories about the place became more and more elaborate - we really were caught up in our own world. I don't see that today, childrens imaginations are too set in the real world. Facebook, Bebo or how to get to the next leve of a game. You can see the lack of imagination in their English writing too.

So when you were kicked out of the house all day to play outside, your parents were probably doing you a favour. You developed some street sense, gained independance, created wonderful worlds for you and your friends and you socialised.

That doesn't happen today.

[Rhubarb]

So do I Riven. My dd is 9 and my ds is 6 and I let them go to the little park just round the corner to play - it's far enough for them not to hear me when I shout, but near enough for me to be able to keep an eye on them. They are also allowed round the block and on occasion they can go to the little shop, about 3 blocks away, on their own.

Now I know that some Mumsnetters would be horrified at that. There are plenty of children (like my sister's kids) who aren't allowed to play outside without adult supervision. I find that very sad. Yes it's a risk, but the way I see it they will gain confidence this way. They need to be street wise to a certain extent and dealing with situations, such as what to do when a load of teens come into the park swearing and smoking, is good for them. They know they CAN deal with that. They usually come straight back, but there have also been times when kids have tried to bully them both in the park and dd has stood up for herself and ds.

It's a fine line to tread, but I do try to give mine as much independence as possible within a safe environment, i.e. I am never far away.

[MathsMadMummy]

Sorry I'm relatively new to MN, never done a webchat before... I posted a question near the top. Do they get answered by me posting them here, or will I have to post it again in the actual webchat on Wed 17th?

TIA

[Pitchounette]

Message withdrawn

[Shitemum]

Mathsmad - i think you only need to post it once in this thread.

[morningpaper]

This book sounds really interesting and I will have a read

I do think that screentime impacts negatively on children - maybe Riven's children can deal with it but mine slip into a 'screen coma' if I put them in front of television/computer and would happily not move all day - but then they are sullen and miserable and crochety afterwards. And I think that the nature of the way we socialise on computers is terrible for attention span and good mental health.

I'd like to know how old Sue's children are now and when she thinks is an acceptable age to allow children to use things like MSN or Facebook? (12? 14? when they've got their own flat?!)

[zazizoma]

Loved the "when they've got their own flat" morningpaper!

I'm also intrigued by Henson's post about government playing fast and loose with child development research. (Shades of drug research?)

I'm interested in Sue's perspective on how much of the National Curriculum and government child policy in general is based on child development theory, and if and where that theory is articulated. I'm also interested in her take on Rose's "ICT is equivalent with literacy and numeracy" platform.

[mrsruffallo]

Hi Sue
I have just read your letter to the Telegraph and I found it refreshing. It echoes everything I think about modern childhood really. I do believe that it is better to stay at home with children for the first three years at least, as a result of which I have been at home for 7 years now. I enjoy it but it's then very hard to get back into the job market.
I make sure my children have lots of no screen time but sadly there are many mothers who find it necessary for their children to have a TV in their bedrooms to fall asleep to or just be out of the way I guess.
How do you tackle these attitudes without being called elitist or snobby(as I have on a few occasions here)

[cissycharlton]

Hello Sue,

I really want to share with you some of my own experiences and invite your comments.

I've two ds aged 4 and 8. I've just been to pick up the four year old from nursery. He has just been given his first pair of football boots and to say he's proud of them is an understatement. His precise words when he saw them were 'absolutely stunning' (I was really proud of his vocabulary).

Anyway he has taken them into nursery twice in the past week or so and with their permission worn them in the garden. When I picked him earlier up I was met with an earnest looking nursery worker who asked in hushed tones if I would mind not bringing them in as they are dangerous. They have plastic, very blunt 'studs and ds2 is a light as a sparrow but apparantly he'd injured somebody. It turns out he'd stood on somebody's finger while they were doing something other than football (which wasn't the intended time for them to be worn). This person hadn't cried but my ds2 who was shouted at and told to apologise) did cry. I don't mind him saying sorry if he has hurt somebody but I got the impression he was being told off for something which was in his words accidental. Moreover, it riled me to say the least when they said 'unfortunately the 'injured' child was girl.'

Obviously I don't want any child to get hurt but ds2 is the gentlest, nicest boy (they said this in a recent parent's evening) who I feel (perhaps unfairly) is being penalised for simply wanting to do boy stuff.

How can these boys operate normally in such a risk averse society?

My ds1 had a reception teacher who, I was told by several other mothers with children higher up in the school, didn't like boys Needless to say he didn't like school much and I did something I never thought I'd do. I went private. Guess what, academically he is thriving and his self-esteem (which has always been an issue) is at a current high because of his numerous sporting achievments.

I feel like I've to fight to give my children a boyhood in a feminised world. They are both being compelented for their manners, kindness but they have a really macho side to them (usually manifested through sport) which I do not want to suppress.

Any advice would be great

[madwomanintheattic]

ohhhhh, it looks i forgot to add 'complete order' to my amazon cart! (which is quite funny on this thread, now i come to think of it...)

sue, apologies first, i haven't read any of your books/ articles (for the above reason lol), but i have read 'last child in the woods' etc which i assume to have a similar philosophy.

i was wondering what your opinion was of the scouts/ guides movement? both have raised a few eyebrows on mn wrt the 'faith' side of things, but they do share a desire to get children outside and exploring/ learning about their environment, often in a very independent way, whilst recognising the pull of an electronic life...

i'm no particular convert (spent a lot of time in uniformed youth organisations of various sorts) but often wonder why such activities aren't promoted more by people with concerns about (toxicity) childhood. (with another huge apology if you have a chapter or ten devoted to 'what i think about scouts...')

[SmileysPeepul]

I have at various times considered buying 'Toxic childhood' but have avoided it due to the fear and guilt I imagine it will instill in me.

I reckon I'm a good enough mother, but my kids do watch TV, use the computer, go to organised activities in the car, never play outside on thier own (except in the gardeen) and go to an 'Outstandingly' pushy school.

I imgaine these are all the things, or type of things, you will criticise in your book, and as my boys are 10 and 7yrs I will be just left thinking, 'right so that was a toxic childhood then, I f**d that up.'

Can you persuade me to read your book?? I'm sure I'd find it interesting, but I'm scared.

[SuePalmer]

test

[PigeonPie]

Hi Sue,

I'm afraid I haven't got anything to add, and sadly won't be able to participate as I've got two pre-schoolers requiring lunch! But I just wanted to say that I have really appreciated your previous two books and have just picked up my copy of 21st Century Boys from our bookshop and can't wait to start it.

I'll look forward to reading everything later.

[downbutnotout]

Ooh ooh ooh - the first time I've managed to turn up to a live mn webchat. Should I have worn Boden? I am eating pate and water biscuits - is that middle class enough?

[downbutnotout]

And I'm quickly scanning reviews of the book - pretty sure my dcs are toxic...

[HelenMumsnet]

Hello everyone. Sue Palmer is here, and ready and waiting to answer your questions.

(When she's put the chocolate buttons down)

Over to you, Sue...

[SuePalmer]

Hello Mumsnet, and thanks very much for inviting me on. I?m wildly impressed by the comments and questions so far and pretty terrified at the prospect of trying to answer them (especially since I didn?t get back from my latest two month roadshow tour till 2.30 am this morning and have only had about four hours sleep?). I?ve tried to write answers to a few of the questions, and will cut-and-paste them first. Apparently this might mean they (including this one) originally appear with some strange formatting, so apologies in advance.

[SuePalmer]

Hello downbutnotout - pate and water biscuits sounds wildly aspirational to me...

[SuePalmer]

MathsMadMummy ? the problem of media scaremongering bothers me a lot! As I point out in the intro to Toxic Childhood, the media is awash these days with terrible stories about children, parents and childhood, and it?s very scary. So as someone who?s reluctantly helped to exacerbate the scaremongering by introducing the term ?toxic childhood? into the mix, I often have horrible qualms.
But having watched problems with children?s learning and mental health escalate wildly over the last decade or so, I felt I had to write the books (which I hope are reasonably well-argued and non-judgemental to parents) because I wanted to provide some answers to the problems.
Unfortunately, I couldn?t get an agent or publisher to take me on until I dreamed up what they called a ?sexy? title. That?s the way the world works, soddit.
I absolutely hate the way parents are made to feel so anxious and guilty about the current state of affairs because this is a complex socio-cultural problem, not just a problem for parents. I often compare it to the industrial revolution when, after several decades of rapid socio-cultural change (driven by new technology and the forces of human greed) people suddenly thought ?Oh no, look at the children ? down the mines, up the chimneys, being flogged senseless in the public schools in the name of empire!? It was only when philanthropists and authors started writing about it (often in very scare-mongering terms ? think Dickens!) that people began to take action.
This time it?s mental health that?s threatened, so I felt I couldn?t just sit back and let it happen ? especially as the solutions are basically pretty simple common sense.