Live webchat with Sue Palmer, author of Toxic Childhood, Wed 17 March, 1-2pm

[GeraldineMumsnet]

We're very pleased to welcome Sue Palmer, author of Toxic Childhood and 21st Century Boys, for a webchat on Wed 17 March at 1pm. She's a timely guest given the MN campaign, Let Girls be Girls.

Sue is a writer and speaker on child development and education. After 15 years as a respected authority on literacy teaching, she published Toxic Childhood: How the Modern World is Damaging Our Children and What We Can Do About It. It helped to spark a national debate about the nature of contemporary childhood.

Since then she has published a handbook for parents on Detoxing Childhood, and 21st Century Boys: How Modern Life Can Drive Them off the Rails and How to Get Them Back on Track.

Sue regularly comments on childhood issues in the national media and London's Evening Standard regularly lists her among London's most influential figures in education (which gives her huge pleasure as she lives in Edinburgh).

The Scotsman has described her as one of the country's "new radical thinkers".

Hope you can join the discussion.

[SmileysPeepul]

hello Sue, thanks for coming.

I have your book in my basket at Amazon awaiting your reassurance that it won't just make me more of a guilt ridden mother than I already am

[downbutnotout]

Good choice on the chcolate buttons!

I have just been reading a thread about the new lady gaga video which turned into a debate about the pornification of society generally in whici the internet seems to be a major culprit. Do you believe "pornfication" is happening and what should we do to help our dcs develop healthy sexual attitudes?

Sorry if this is a bit beyond your remit but mn seems obsessed with it these days...

[SuePalmer]

Hi SmileysPeepul. Well, I tried very hard not to make parents feel bad - because I think it's a really really difficult time to be bringing up children. As I did the original research, I kept realising that I'd fallen into all sorts of pitfalls when I was bringing up my daughter, and I would've been grateful if someone had pointed them out. I reckon most of us are doing the best we can, and - as people keep saying - the conclusions of Toxic and 21st C BOys are really just common sense. Many parents say they find the books reassuring. My fingers are crossed....

[downbutnotout]

And hello to you!!

[Pwsimerimew]

Hi Sue, just wanted to say that I went to a conference organised by my company last year to hear you speak, and you were fab. We're all still talking about you! Go girl!

[SuePalmer]

Yes, I do believe that pornification is going on. I was talking to a group of 16 year old girls in Halifax last week and they were really bothered that the boys all watch porn. They say boys today expect girls to look and act like girls on the porn channels, on the internet and in the lads' mags, and they also think girls really like that sort of thing.
That's a terrible pressure on teenage girls.

[downbutnotout]

I am fearful for my dd.

[SuePalmer]

Argh, Leningrad, it?s taken me twelve years and three books to try to explain why I think mental health problems are escalating, so I can?t really sum it up in a short answer. But the essence is that ? over the last thirty years ? we have experienced utterly unprecedented levels of ?social evolution? (massive technological advances, hyper-competitive consumerism driven by all-pervasive marketing and media, the mass movement of women into the workforce -- to name but three!).
Human beings, however, haven?t evolved at all ?biological evolution takes a very very long time. Babies are still born with the same brains they?ve had for millennia, and children need the same basic conditions in early life to grow up happy and healthy, e.g. real food, real play, real interaction with real life human beings in real time and real space. For a growing number of children in modern society, those basic conditions have been sadly eroded.
We?ve seen the physical effects of this in the obesity explosion, and I believe we?re seeing the psychological effects in the huge increases in developmental disorders and mental health problems in our young people.

[SuePalmer]

Downbutnotout, at least we're alert to it now. So we can start by challenging the people who are causing the problem... and alerting other parents to it. I believe Mumsnet is starting a campaign about the sexualisation of young girls. We also need one about the way boys are being targeted with violence and porn.
It's perfectly possible to change attitudes, and then it's possible to change society. But it means people have to speak out and make a fuss.

[manfrom]

Hi Sue,

was there ever a "golden age" for children?

If so, when was it?

thanks in advance

[SuePalmer]

Sunshinenanny, I do agree with you ? it?s up to all of us! However, I don?t believe the answer lies in cutting our children off from the world they?re going to live in (and I?m sure you don?t). It?s a question of balance.
What?s more, peer pressure (driven by market forces) is now incredibly powerful and eventually even ?sheltered? children are going to encounter it? and that can lead to conflicts with their parents.
So we have to find some way to sort things out for ALL children, not just our own.

[SuePalmer]

Hi manfrom. Oh dear, the golden age question. No, I don't believe there was ever a golden age of childhood, but I do believe that a wealthy country should, after more than half a century of peace and prosperity, be seeing increased levels of 'wellbeing' in its children. We're seeing increased mental health problems and developmental conditions. So rather than rabbiting about 'golden ages' I think we should be trying to do something about it.
We used to say 'children should be seen and not heard' in this country. Now we don't even want to see them...

[SuePalmer]

For tougholdbird ? I fear that so far all the politicians I?ve met seem to be interested in soundbites rather than constructive action. There?s no political will to address the real issues, such as the commercial pressures on children.
But I think that?s partly because the way we raise our children isn?t ? shouldn?t be ? up to politicians. Most of the political interventions of the last thirty years have had unintended and damaging side-effects.
I wish politicians could understand the problems (although, as I argue in 21st Century Boys, I think there are psychological reasons that they can?t!). But what we actually need is a ?change of mind? on everyone?s behalf. Then the politicians would have to follow parental will, rather than try, rather blindly, to lead it.
For a start, I wish parents would make a huge song and dance about the effects of aggressive marketing on children under twelve?.and am thrilled that Mumsnet is launching a campaign about the sexualisation of little girls, which is one part of this issue.

[manfrom]

Hi Sue, thanks for your answer.

I blame Charles Dickens for inventing an idealised form of childhood - he did the same with Christmas. He has a lot to answer for....

[SuePalmer]

This is an answer to ahundredtimes...thanks for saying the books are common sense. I know exactly what you mean about each generation criticizing the last one, and hate the thought that people think I?m some sort of grumpy old woman. I suppose my argument is that, when someone has to use a term like ?Toxic Childhood? in order to get a book of common sense published, there?s probably been a bit of a common-sense bypass in society.

[Mrsdoasyouwouldbedoneby]

I see what you are saying, but is the discovery in part, due to the growing understanding of children as people. We have moved far on from the seen and not heard eras, we know children need all those things you mentioned, and now we see we have to recognise their psychological wellbeing in a way that hasn't been truly done before. I realise you can say that in the last century educationalists looked at emotional development, but have we fully acknowledged the repercussions of this? FWIW, I see anecdotally that many adult MH issues are often blamed by the person on their childhood (all the abuse biographical literature suggests this), so is it really something knew? Could it just be being acknowledged now: which is different?

[downbutnotout]

Can't help noticing the irony here though - I am currently spending a lot of time on the internet and will be picking up ds from nursery soon.

[SuePalmer]

See what you mean about Dickens and Christmas... it's horrible trying to live up to an idealised version of a celebration. But I think it's really been increased commercialisation over the 20th/21st centuries, rather than his idea of fun, family and kindness...
And I think Dickens did an enormous amount to bring public attention to the cruelty exerted on children and the poor during the Industrial Revolution.

[SuePalmer]

Mrsdoasyouwouldbedoneby (love the name). Yes, we know a lot more about childhood, psychology, etc... and the knowledge seems to have led many people into a sort of fatalistic attitude. Sitting around thinking 'Oh dear, what can we do about such a terrible lot of confusing stuff? I think I'll just stick my head in the sand and hope it'll go away.'
I write my books because I think there's lots we can do, and I hate fatalistic attitudes! Especially as regards children, who are our symbol of hope for the future.

[YoginiBikini]

Hi Sue. I've picked up your book many times and also have it in my amazon basket. What's stopping me? I must go and get it ordered!

[SuePalmer]

Leningrad. Agree -- but don't rely entirely on hope! Talk about it with other parents and develop some solidarity on the subject. The 16 year old girls I was talking to last week really surprised me by saying they wished adults would make some sort of ruling that Facebook etc should be for 18+. I said 'But you go on it!' and they replied that there was a lot that worried them about it, they didn't feel competent to cope at their age, and they wished some grownup would offer some guidance. I was stunned.

[shirleywhirley]

I would love 3 and 8yr old to watch music channels, on t.v, rather than watch "some" programmes. but, I find I have to "vet" most of them, or put on channels which show 80's (or before) music: as most of the music videos are just about, soft porn! Even after vetting them, I must have been unaware of one my 3yr old saw, as she now smacks her bottom, as she is dancing! which in some respects, is funny, but also worrying that these are the images they are bombarded with! How do you think we can change these music videos, before it goes to far?

[SuePalmer]

If consumers made enough fuss, the market would find a way to block stuff, whilst still ensuring it was available to those adults who really want to access it. We've just been too frightened to seem 'stuffy', and now things are getting out of hand...especially as regards children.
I don't want to see girls sexualised and boys brutalised, so I scream about it. The more people who scream, the sooner things will start to improve.