Live webchat with Sue Palmer, author of Toxic Childhood, Wed 17 March, 1-2pm

[GeraldineMumsnet]

We're very pleased to welcome Sue Palmer, author of Toxic Childhood and 21st Century Boys, for a webchat on Wed 17 March at 1pm. She's a timely guest given the MN campaign, Let Girls be Girls.

Sue is a writer and speaker on child development and education. After 15 years as a respected authority on literacy teaching, she published Toxic Childhood: How the Modern World is Damaging Our Children and What We Can Do About It. It helped to spark a national debate about the nature of contemporary childhood.

Since then she has published a handbook for parents on Detoxing Childhood, and 21st Century Boys: How Modern Life Can Drive Them off the Rails and How to Get Them Back on Track.

Sue regularly comments on childhood issues in the national media and London's Evening Standard regularly lists her among London's most influential figures in education (which gives her huge pleasure as she lives in Edinburgh).

The Scotsman has described her as one of the country's "new radical thinkers".

Hope you can join the discussion.

[Blindfish]

I'm a grandma and I think some children sometimes have too many supervised activities and what on earth is a "playdate"? I have 6 children and they played out all day and only came in at bedtime or when they were hungry. If it rained they came in with thier mates and made camps in the bedroom. Despite being "ignored" they've all grown into caring, well balanced adults. Why can't we just let our kids get on with being kids.

[dawntigga]

need this to appear in one lump

SoPostingTiggaxx

[pointydog]

All this talk of 'active learning' is a red herring. There is no definition of 'active learning'. When pushed, those in charge said it meant any activity when the child was engaged and that, yes, it could mean writing something with a pencil if that child was engaged in the task.

[sungirltan]

restless- maybe its just me that sees montessori as progressive - simply because there was one attached to the progressive (and extremely democratic) school i grew up in. although i can see the two concepts being a bit juxtaposed - it worked.

[restlessnative]

sungirltan I don't understand why Montessori is considered 'alternative', it's so well-accepted and I gather they're encouraging further, independent research into their practices: good luck to them. Steiner of course isn't 'progressive'. The form of education that describes itself, rightly, as progressive is Democratic Education. Three schools in the UK (one primary) but many more internationally, in the US, Denmark, Sweden... but of course the idea of greater democracy and child-directed learning in schools need not be restricted to distinct Democratic schools. I suspect that's the way to go, and that technology will help make it possible.

Good luck and hope you find what you're looking for.

(I suspect btw, along with plenty of others, that Oliver James will disappear up his own fundament. The less people take him seriously imo the shriller he gets)

And here's the next person mumsnet could invite: Simon Singh! He could talk about the science curriculum AND libelreform, which mumsnet supports. Perhaps he could write a book called: '21st Century Girls: the Eye that Assesses the Data Can Change the World'. Men can 'rock the cradle' just as well as girls.

[sungirltan]

therationalist - its still there don't panic. i looked at your earlier links and some other stuff that came up on google about the racism concerns - found lots!

i am considering a stenier school near here (mainly because progressive schools are a bit thin on the ground down here) but i stress the word considering as have heard mixed reviews!

[MathsMadMummy]

That was the first webchat I've followed, really good, thanks MNHQ! Will have to read her books... she seems to have a lot of the same thoughts as me. Wish I'd written a book before her

I particularly share her views on marketing and consumerism/materialism... just wondering if anyone's read Oliver James' books, Affluenza and the follow-up The Selfish Capitalist? Haven't finished them (reading for fun is a long-lost treat) but there are parallels.

[TheRationalist]

Sungirltan, a fair point, I'd have to talk about the history of Steiner discussions on MN (and elsewhere) to illustrate my point, but don't worry I'll keep this short.

Trying to research the philosophy beyond the promotional literature is very difficult - I am told the movement intimidates and threatens legal action to parents, forum moderators and journalists.

If you search the archives you will see most of the posts have been deleted and whole threads have disappeared. Parents are not allowed to talk about what happened to them and their children, so the act of making an informed decision is denied to parents wanting to reassure themselves before enrollment. I was one of those parents, we had moved house to be near the school such was my enthusiasm at the time.

I don't want to turn this into a debate about my concerns about Steiner ed, I only commented on this thread as I saw the post where Sue was advocating Steiner education. I feel that someone in Sue's position has a certain responsibility to also make sure she is making an informed decision before she promotes the Steiner philosophy (also called anthroposophy) on a parenting forum.

My post will probably be deleted, I hope you see this link before it disappears.

ukanthroposophy.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/seminarnotes/

[sungirltan]

therationalist - with all due respect, steiner is a distinctly alternative education practice. one which may require sufficient research before children are enrolled. you can't really blame anyone because you didn't know enough about it!

[restlessnative]

I must say Jim Rose's recommendations have been warmly welcomed by my dd's primary school. They like the increased flexibility and the encouragement to think creatively. In fact they're pretty cheerful about education, which is brilliant for us.

I'd like to see a discussion of the science curriculum. Any ideas?

[zazizoma]

What a difference from Jim Rose, who presented the success of his granddaughter in the current system as the sole developmental justification for his recommendations.

MNHQ, thank you for arranging this very interesting chat. Even if one does not agree with her, Sue Palmer has demonstrated that she can clearly articulate what she sees and why she's come to her conclusions.

Would it be possible to bring more creative educational thinkers for webchats? I'm tired of hearing from the "Big Boys who run the show" because they don't really listen, though I can only hope that some of what we say gets through.

[TheRationalist]

Sue, thank you for your reply. I think Montessori is a very real and practical foundation for learning, my concerns are with Steiner education and it seeping into mainstream education under the guise of 'diversity'.

I found a transcript of a talk you gave at the Edinburgh International Book Festival back in 2006, someone asked if you had done any research on Steiner ed: 'That?s what I really admire about Steiner. Their training courses for child care?I?m trying to get my daughter on one'.

I disagree with your assertion that the Open Eye campaign is not a Steiner Waldorf initiative. Over 2/3 of the signatures on the original letter are connected directly to the movement.

If I and others had known this particular educational movement has survivors and critics groups across the world zooey.wordpress.com/links/ we may have been able to make an informed decision before enrolling our children. I feel there is a duty of care from those working and reporting in education that this needs to be seriously looked into as it involves the welfare of children.

[SuePalmer]

Oh, and PS, OpenEYE is not a Steiner Waldorf initiative. The founding group did include some concerned Steiner people (including Richard), but it also included me, a very wonderful Montessorian called Kim, and Margaret Edgington, who I reckon is one of the country's best independent early years consultants.
What we have in common is a real concern about the statutory nature of the EYFS. As a literacy specialist I'm particularly concerned about the literacy targets for five year olds which I believe are fundamentally flawed, and which are skewing practice in settings around the country.
That really is my last word!

[madwomanintheattic]

did i spectacularly miss the point then?

[restlessnative]

Sue - do you have any idea what their attitudes to early childhood are based on? Don't you think you should do some research before recommending Steiner Waldorf education, in other words: anthroposophy?

[SuePalmer]

Oh hell, all right one last post. I have no personal involvement with the Steiner movement at all. Absolutely none. I do however have a lot of sympathy with their attitudes to early childhood and have given talks at several Steiner schools. (On the other hand, I am President of Montessori AMI UK I was invited to take up the post despite having no background in Montessori teaching, and was delighted to do so because I have huge admiration for their early years practice too).
I'm not sponsored by any organisations at all. I've been totally freelance for the last 25 years and make a pretty modest living by writing and speaking, which helps finance my involvement in a variety of 'childhood campaigns', which I do for free.
Richard House contacted me when he read Toxic Childhood, and we've worked on a couple of campaigns together and are now good friends. He's a really nice man. But we've only met three times, and he's never tried to convert me to Steinerism!!!!

[restlessnative]

will you please answer The Rationalist's question.

in our opinion the language you use is anti-therapeutic and scare-mongering.

[SuePalmer]

Final message before I go off and collapse into a heap. Please beware of Playfish (Google it). It's a mixture of social networking and gaming, aimed at children from the age of five. It's free to start off -- they make their money from selling quite cheap downloadable extras. They're already making a great deal of money in the States.
I think it's unethical to aim this stuff at such young children, because they need to learn to interact in real life with real friends, and to play in the real world before they start virtual gaming.
Children here have already heard of it and are getting involved, but this stuff goes right under the parental radar. And once Ipad technology gets cheaper, the kids'll want those too -- and with endless interconnectivity and endless sites like Playfish to encourage addiction, screens could easily become their lifetime default activity...

[TheRationalist]

You mention the Open Eye campaign (a Steiner Waldorf initiative), may I ask what is your relationship with the Steiner movement?

Do you know anything about the pedagogy?

I note the majority of the people who signed the original Open Eye letter are involved with the Steiner Waldorf movment.

Another supporter Aric Sigman, who writes in a rather hysterical way (imo) about the supposed damaging effects of todays technology on child development is commissioned by the Ruskin Mill Educational Trust, an anthroposophical (Steiner Waldorf) organisation.

Aric Sigman and Ruskin Mill

[SuePalmer]

Hi Henson ? I agree that this country has tried to provide childcare on the cheap. Basically, we don?t value the concept of ?care? much at all. It?s one of the things that makes me really furious.

[SuePalmer]

Hello Elliemental. I always hope my books will reassure parents as well as alert them to possible dangers. In many ways, they?re the books I wish I?d had when I was raising my daughter. Most people that read them say that they?re common sense ? I really have no wish at all to make people feel guilty or inadequate. IT TAKES A VILLAGE TO RAISE A CHILD, and at present parents aren?t getting much support at all from the rest of the villagers.

[SuePalmer]

Hi Southeastastra -- I think playworkers are absolutely fantastic! Tim Gill was one of my main advisers on the play chapter in Toxic, and has become a good friend. I love his book ?No Fear: growing up in a risk-averse society? and draw on it extensively in ?21st Century Boys?. I now work quite a lot with playworkers and their conferences are definitely the best ones I get to go to!

[SuePalmer]

Riven, couldn?t agree more. Parents need to back off children?s play. But computer games, while fun, are not the same thing as the ?real play? you describe. I
A bit of electronic entertainment is fine, but if it becomes children?s default activity, they miss out on an awful lot of stuff that?s vital for all-round healthy development.
So, as you say, the thing is to strike a healthy balance (which will be different at different ages). Personally, I think children should have as little exposure to screen-based entertainment as possible in the first three years, then no more than a couple of hours a day till seven, then sensible negotiated amounts thereafter. And keep the screens out of their bedrooms!

[Pitchounette]

Message withdrawn

[SuePalmer]

Ahundredtimes, honeyflower and isaidheyhoney?. There is some evidence that children in the UK are particularly ?unhappy? from UNICEF?s survey of childhood wellbeing. Out of 21 countries in the developed world our children came bottom. And, of course, our teenagers are always top of the European league for a variety of dysfunctional behaviour, as well as many mental health problems. This is why I wrote the books.