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WEBCHAT GUIDELINES: 1. One question per member plus one follow-up. 2. Keep your question brief. 3. Don't moan if your question doesn't get answered. 4. Do be civil/polite. 5. If one topic or question threatens to overwhelm the webchat, MNHQ will usually ask for people to stop repeating the same question or point.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Live webchat with Sir Jim Rose, Tues 2 Feb, 1-2pm

148 replies

GeraldineMumsnet · 28/01/2010 12:01

After our webchat with Ed Balls last September, another thread started about summer-born babies and on it you asked us to try to get Sir Jim Rose along for his own webchat.

We're really pleased to say that he's coming to the Towers on Tues 2 Feb from 1pm. It's his first-ever webchat, he admits to being a social networking novice and is bringing along a typist, so please be patient!

Sir Jim was formerly Her Majesty's Inspector and Director of Inspection for OFSTED. He retired in 1999 and since has acted as a consultant to the DFES on nursery and primary education. He has led several independent reviews, including early reading, the primary curriculum, and teaching and dyslexia.

As ever, if you can't make it on the day, please post your questions here.

OP posts:
PixieOnaLeaf · 02/02/2010 11:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

flashharriet · 02/02/2010 11:58

Dear Sir Jim

My eldest child is now in Year 6. My own last two years in primary school (what would now be years 6 and 7) were truly memorable and I had a fantastic time, learning about so many different things. My breadth of knowledge at this age is streets ahead of my son's - the curriculum is so narrow (Tudors again anyone? ) and since Christmas, they have been doing SATS revision and practice questions all morning, every morning.

Where is the joy in this? Where is the teacher's passion for a subject allowed to come through in this curriculum? Our education system appears to have got itself into a sorry state where test results are all that matters. I for one find this exceptionally sad and I feel gutted that my children will not experience the carefree, joyous and interesting primary education that I myself had.

Btw, my children's school has been graded "good" with "outstanding" features by OFSTED.

Thank you for coming to talk to us.

caramelwaffle · 02/02/2010 12:19

I would very much like to see other languages being taught in State Primary schools, across the board, as part of the curriculum. Is this feasible in the near future?

PixieOnaLeaf · 02/02/2010 12:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

caramelwaffle · 02/02/2010 12:27

I also strongly believe that children born extremely prematurely should have the option of deferring school placements for a year. Not a question , more a comment. I must post and run but thank you for coming in to answer questions

caramelwaffle · 02/02/2010 12:33

Thank you for answering Pixie. Unfortunately, provision seems to have been curtailed in our area.

GeraldineMumsnet · 02/02/2010 12:37

Hello everyone,

Sir Jim has done some advance answers and background info that we're posting here now to give everyone a chance to read before the chat proper starts at 1pm.

Bonsoir: Why is there so much emphasis on early reading in the UK? I live in France where children start to learn to read in the calendar year in which they turn six ie between the ages of six years and eight months, and five years and nine months - albeit having done plenty of preparation in anticipation of learning to read. Most children here seem to learn to read very quickly and everyone is a lot stressed/competitive about the acquisition of reading than in the UK. Couldn't the UK relax a bit on the reading front?

JimRose: Most English-speaking countries seem to have gone through a period of 'hot debate' about the teaching of reading, especially about the teaching of phonics, and when to start teaching children to read. English is not as phonetically regular as other alphabetic languages, such as French, Swedish or Spanish so our children generally have to learn more variations in spelling (eg rain, rein, reign) than their counterparts in other countries.

Nevertheless, English is sufficiently regular to make it crucially important for children to learn how the alphabet works for reading and writing (decoding and encoding text) through high-quality phonics teaching.

Although phonics is essential, it is not of itself sufficient for children to become skilled readers and achieve the main goal of reading, which is to understand what they read.

The key to success lies in your insightful comment about the importance of giving children 'plenty of preparation in anticipation of learning to read'. We know that reading feeds off speaking and listening. The same applies to writing ? if they can't say it they can't write it. So as part of preparing children for reading, parents and teachers should do all they can to make sure children are engaged, often, in deeply pleasurable experience related to reading ? even babies show delight in good picture books and hearing the rhythm of spoken words before they can understand them.

We need to make sure children have every opportunity to enlarge and enrich their spoken vocabulary as a communication skill in its own right as well as a key ingredient of learning to read and write.

Where children receive plenty of these language-rich early experiences they become capable of starting aspects of phonic work by around the age of five they begin to link letters and sounds, write their names and so forth.

We should certainly not put undue pressure on young children to do these things but nor should we hold them back if they have developed a healthy appetite to read and write.

This is why the Reading Review recommended decisions about starting on reading should be subject to principled professional judgments about children's developing abilities,

QandA: Do you think the over emphasis on structured phonics sessions in schools starting from EYFS, stifles children's enjoyment of reading and would it be better to just start in Y2 once all children were ready and able to learn without 3 years of pushing children before many are ready?

JimRose: As with other things it is important, in the case of phonics, to distinguish between good and poor quality teaching. Good teaching of effective reading programmes does not place an 'over-emphasis on structured phonics sessions in schools' and '3 years of pushing children before many are ready'. Once started, however, phonic work should be structured to make sure children receive systematic teaching on a regular basis so that they acquire a firm grasp of phonic skills. Learning any skill calls for regular practice.

In the past, phonics was associated with a Dickensian image of over-didactic, 'Gradgrind' style teaching. Anyone observing high-quality phonic work in a balanced reading programme nowadays would be quickly disabused of that image. The emphasis is upon learning through multi-sensory, active experiences which children invariably enjoy.

In recent years there has been a huge improvement in the quality of materials for reading, and in teaching expertise, including phonics. Because progress in these circumstances is often rapid, children's capability and confidence are boosted and they rightly become very proud of their achievements.

Remember ? from the standpoint of children phonic teaching and learning are time-limited processes; once they have learned to read they can read to learn for the rest of their lives.

KMJ: Sir Jim, my son (7) is most engaged at school when he is outside, why don't schools make more use of their outside space as a learning environment? Surely not health and safety nonsense keeping them indoors? It was fine when he was in reception class and even Year 1 but since then getting outside is almost a novelty.

JimRose: Your son sounds very much like my grandson (8) who would much rather be out and about actively investigating things than indoors sitting down and being told things.

Many primary schools have taken steps to make their outdoor space more learning centred. For example, school grounds often have wild-life study areas, gardening plots and adventurous resources for physical activity. There are some very imaginative designs for transforming limited outdoor space in urban schools.

Like you, I hope that schools will continue to look for ways to develop opportunities for learning outdoors to support and extend learning in school. It is worth mentioning that national bodies such as the National Trust and the Royal Horticultural Society are keenly interested in supporting primary schools in these respects.

FabIsGoingToBeFabIn2010: Who decides when the children will go full time or not? At my school the younger children do mornings only from Sept-Jan and in my experience with my children it is too long. They found it a big shock as they thought school was just mornings, like play school.

JimRose: The argument that admitting four-year olds to primary schools 'may be doing them more harm than good' only holds true if primary schools fail to recognise and provide for children's full range of educational and welfare needs of the younger children.

Nowadays, the great majority of primary schools recognise this truth and work hard to make sure that their Reception Year classes are well attuned to meeting the needs of four and five year-olds. This includes giving serious attention to learning through play and understanding how different forms of play benefit young children's physical, intellectual, social and emotional development.

Primary schools, in general, are also much better informed than, say, a decade ago about the risks of changing too abruptly from play-based learning to accommodate the demands of the National Curriculum as children move from their reception class to Year One. In some schools, however, this is undoubtedly an issue that calls for greater vigilance and action to get the balance right between play-based learning and direct teaching ? both have a positive and complementary role to play in the education of five and six-year olds.

As one headteacher said, "These children can find 'wall?to-wall play all day' just as unrewarding as long periods of sitting down being told things." The best schools strike the right balance.

dilbertina: Ahh, probably not the Jim Rose that did the circus sideshow thing then info here (or is it?!). I stood on him whilst he lay on a load of broken glass whilst at university (at his request I hasten to add.) And I weighed less then - probably why I was picked when my mates kindly volunteered me. Anyway, if same one my question is: "Did it not hurt?"!

JimRose: Sadly, I am not that Jim Rose ? I just wonder what you were studying at university to enjoy such sport - I obviously missed out!

dysgran: Where are the dyslexia-friendly local authorities? Are all schools in those authorities dyslexia friendly? Why are so many schools still dyslexia unfriendly?

JimRose: I hope the Dyslexia Review will prompt a system-wide approach so that all local authorities and schools become 'dyslexia friendly'.

We must move on from the sterile debate about whether dyslexia exists or not and focus on how best to help children with dyslexic and related learning difficulties.

I was delighted that government saw fit to respond to the Review by making £10 million immediately available for the training of 4,000 specialists and that training is now getting underway.

These things take time but I am optimistic that what is being done will lead to real and lasting improvements on this front eg through the Dyslexia / SpLD Trust. (See [email protected] )

tatt: Why did Ofsted support a lack of discipline in schools? Why do bullies get help but not their victims? How can Ofsted say a school doesn't have a problem with bullying when parents are taking their children away because the school has a problem and isn't dealing with it.

Why do schools not recognise dyspraxia in the more able child? They don't need much support just some advice. However studying how some children manage to learn despite dyspraxia might help those who don't.

JimRose: Your 'main' question is really for OFSTED but I should be astonished if OFSTED and government guidance on bullying did other than strongly support school discipline and anti-bullying policies.

On dyspraxia, I hope provision for this will benefit from the recommendations of the Dyslexia Review. The review discusses motor coordination under 'co-occurring difficulties', one of which is dyspraxia.

You may find the Dyspraxia Association's classroom guidelines helpful in discussing this with your school. (I am advised that these can be downloaded from the website www.dyspraxiafoundation.org.uk/services/ed-classroom-guidelines.php)

gigglewitch: Why isn't there the facility to have classroom support (via statementing process if necessary) for severely dyslexic KS2 children? We're in a relatively dyslexia friendly area, grade 1 school, but still no help. How on earth are recommendations to be put into practice if this is the case?

JimRose: The Dyslexia Review explores the kinds of support, including classroom support that should be, or become available. It makes recommendations, for example, about the importance of early identification and sustaining support for children.

This reflects the 1996 Education Act which requires schools and local authorities to have regard for the Special Educational Needs Code of Practice that includes dyslexia. The proposals are extensive and too detailed to be covered here, but the review can be viewed at www.teachernet.gov.uk/publications (search reference: DCSF-00659-2009)

LoveBeingAMummy: Hello Sir Jim, if you had three wishes and could change things instantly, which three things would you change and how?

JimRose: Hello LoveBeingAMummy, I am thinking of stealing your great title and becoming LoveBeingAGrandad. Interesting ? this is a question I often ask of primary headteachers and usually receive answers to do with: reducing the amount of testing (SATs); dropping publicly reported school league tables; making an over-demanding National Curriculum less prescriptive, and giving more time for schools to consolidate existing initiatives before introducing additional ones.

All of these things are now at the forefront of professional and public debate and there is no doubt that some significant changes are being made by policy makers while holding to that which is good.

I have never put much faith in 'quick fixes' but I hope the recommendations of the reviews on reading, dyslexia and the primary curriculum with which I have been involved will contribute significantly, in the short and longer term, to children's education and well-being.

My wish would be for all primary schools to be as good as those at the leading edge (of which we have many that are 'world class'). Since we are constantly told that the 'the quality of an education system cannot exceed the quality of its teachers', how we fulfil that wish, must mean investing in securing and assuring top quality teaching.

BACKGROUND

Transitions between classes and schools

In making recommendations on this aspect of its remit my review recognised that several important, new factors will be in place in the near future:

  • children will be entitled to more preschool provision from this year;
  • Year 1 teachers will have opportunities to work more closely with Reception Year teachers on assessing young children's progress through the Early Years Foundation Stage (EYFS);
  • the EYFS will be subject to review this year, making it possible to take account of best practice in forward planning; and
  • the six areas of learning proposed for the primary curriculum will strengthen continuity with the EYFS from 2011.

School starting age
We asked the National Foundation or Educational Research (NFER) to review the research about 'summer born' children and relative age effects on starting school.
From its review, the NFER reported that: 'The evidence suggests that the Government's attention should be focused on ensuring developmentally appropriate and positive experiences for relatively younger children in the primary school and also on ensuring that the process for identifying children with special educational needs takes account of relative age. This, together with taking account of relative age effects in assessment results, would help to ensure that differences in children's birth dates do not become a continuing source of disadvantage for children and young people.' The NFER concluded that: 'The practices of deferring entry for children not considered to be ?ready? for school or requiring children to repeat a year are not recommended for addressing relative age effects.'

On the basis of this and other evidence, my review says: 'Parents concerned, for whatever reason, about how well their child will thrive in a school environment will need clear guidance on the optimum conditions and the benefits to children of entering a reception class in September immediately after their fourth birthday. The option of part-time attendance should be available for children whose parents, with the advice of schools, believe this would ease entry to school. It is important to be clear that this is not a recommendation to lower the statutory school starting age rather than give parents a greater choice, and to achieve a better match of provision to need in the Reception Year.'

Even if all the incoming children to a reception class were born at the same hour on the same day there would still be a considerable difference in the range of their developing abilities and a need to 'personalise' aspects of their learning. This is why the Early Years Foundation Stage from birth to five provides valuable guidance for teachers (and parents) about what it is reasonable to expect of typically developing children as they progress through this stage.

Children's Plan
We know very well that high-quality early years and primary education brings enormous benefits for children and their families. In short, how well children succeed in the early and primary years is the best indicator of how well they will succeed in secondary school and later education. This is one of the reasons why, in 2007, the Government published an ambitious 'Children's Plan' designed, among other things, to strengthen support for all families during the formative early years of their children's lives, and involve parents fully in their children's learning.

The over-arching aim of the Children's Plan is to make this country the best place in the world for children to grow up. This aim is based upon five principles:

  • government does not bring up children ? parents do ? so government needs to do more to back parents and families;
  • all children have the potential to succeed and should go as far as their talents can take them;
  • children and young people need to enjoy their childhood as well as grow up prepared for adult life;
  • services need to be shaped by and responsive to children, young people and families, not designed around professional boundaries; and
  • it is always better to prevent failure than tackle a crisis later.

Primary Curriculum Review
The Children's Plan called for action on a number of fronts, one of which was a review of the primary curriculum, which I was asked to lead. The Primary Curriculum Review was asked to make recommendations, for example, to ensure there is:

  • more time for the basics so children achieve a good grounding in reading, writing and mathematics;
  • greater flexibility for other subjects;
  • time for primary school children to learn a modern foreign language; and
  • a smoother transition from play-based learning in the early years into primary school, particularly to help summer-born children who can be at a disadvantage when they enter primary school.
OP posts:
holsareacoming · 02/02/2010 12:41

Modern Foreign Languages at primary age - you believe that every child should benefit from some form of MFL during primary and every primary school should offer this.

I applaude this and feel that their interest would follow them onto secondary school, however my concerns are how on earth are underfunded state schools going to supply a good level of teaching when Primary Schools dont employ a specialist MFL teacher.

My local Priamry school has the art teacher discussing paint colours in french whereas another I believe is singing a french song at assembly once a week - this is how they are covering it. Surely this is not what you meant?

holsareacoming · 02/02/2010 12:50

Pixie - no it is not compulsory for primary schools to teach MFL - it was years ago then it was dropped and also make available for 2ndary to drop it as an option therefore languages took a nose dive at GCSE. However as of 2011 Primaries must all offer some form of languge teaching to this age group.

mrsbean78 · 02/02/2010 12:54

Backtolingle has posted about a change in LEA policy that has made it impossible for children with SEN to repeat their nursery year.

I am a Speech and Language Therapist working in a similar situation - a number of years ago, I saw the difference that repeat nursery years made to children with serious language and communication disorders. Since that option has been removed, I see more and more of my caseload who would have benefited from this policy struggling across all areas of the curriculum. The opportunities for appropriate scaffolding of their academic and social needs effectively vanish on hitting Year 1.

My question is: shouldn't education for all be tailored to be developmentally appropriate for all? Disadvantaging children by virtue of their birthday is unfair. So too is disadvantaging those with SEN who are following a different developmental trajectory. Trying to force a young SEN child with the attention span of a nine month old to sit when they are not developmentally ready to do so, just because it makes the paperwork easier, makes a mockery of inclusion policies. If SEN kids are to be included, it is only right that schools have some flexibility in meeting their needs.

GeraldineMumsnet · 02/02/2010 13:00

Just getting settled - webchat will start any minute. Welcome to Sir Jim, thanks again for coming on

OP posts:
JimRose · 02/02/2010 13:04

Hello everyone,

Thank you for all of your questions. I am delighted to have the opportunity to answer as many as I can!

Prior to going live I've had the opportunity to read some of the posts. A number of them relate to issues of special educational needs which I may not be able to answer during the live period. I will endeavour to do so as soon as possible.

I note that the issue of school starting age is also a hot topic. Hopefully I will have covered most of these points, but if there are any outstanding ones I will pick them up later.

Jim

CMOTdibbler · 02/02/2010 13:05

Jim, do you think that the current system of inspection really works ? It seems that schools do a mad 'getting ready for Ofsted' rush, then are on their best behaviour for a few days, rather than the inspectorate being more of a frequent visitor to schools who can get a real feel for whether the school talks the talk or walks the walk ?

cleanandclothed · 02/02/2010 13:05

Thank you for coming and for answering so many questions in advance. I would like to add my plea for a discussion about summer born children, particularly those born prematurely, being able to start reception a year later than 'normal'. I cannot understand any objections to this - could you perhaps try to articulate them if you have any?

JimRose · 02/02/2010 13:06

To: cissycharlton

Speaking as someone who was an avid rugby player even after the age of forty, and still retains a routine of jogging at an ever decreasing pace I am fully convinced that an active sports and physical development programme should be part of a high quality curriculum and schools should be responsible for promoting this. I would be very surprised if Ofsted ignored the importance of sport in schools, especially given the expectation that children will have 5 hours of physical activity each week. I have to say that I?ve seen many very good PE and sport lessons taught by female teachers.

JimRose · 02/02/2010 13:07

To: ionelacd

Thanks for your post. The Review (chapter 6) looked at international comparisons of primary education. Not surprisingly, the picture was very mixed. Many countries that claimed to start primary school earlier seemed to be offering much that is contained in our early years foundation stage, including reception classes, as part of their provision for pre-school education.

JimRose · 02/02/2010 13:07

Hi ppeatfruit. I think I have covered the phonics points earlier. As to the question on afternoon play, the trend in infant schools is to make what is often called continuous provision where children have a wide choice of guided indoor and outdoor activities throughout the day.

JimRose · 02/02/2010 13:08

To: BelleDeChocolateFluffyBun

The government has appointed John Stannard as the champion for gifted and talented children. My understanding is that John is working closely with Local Authorities and other partners to promote challenging programmes for children like your son. I can ask John to post what is the state of play in this area.

However, the curriculum review does look to schools to structure the areas of learning so that all children, irrespective of their background and ability, are sufficiently challenged to achieve their potential.

JimRose · 02/02/2010 13:08

To:lazylion
Among the many reasons why you might decide to send your son to a good local school is the fact that one of the most motivating factors for children is to learn with other children. Indeed many important aspects of social, emotional and intellectual development can only be advanced through interaction with others. Perhaps the most obvious is the development of speaking, listening and early literacy skills.

paranoid2 · 02/02/2010 13:09

yes, you answered some questions regarding school age entry but no mention of premature children having to start school a whole year earlier than they should have been in many cases and the long term implications, both socially and academically as a consequence of this.

JimRose · 02/02/2010 13:09

To:allchildrenreading

As you might expect, I am pleased to see your endorsement of the Early Reading Review! We would do well to continue to develop a nationwide response based on what is now firm ground on the teaching and learning of reading and writing incorporated in the recommendations of that review.

As far as I know the government is preparing a response to last month?s Select Committee report into early literacy interventions.

JimRose · 02/02/2010 13:09

Thanks Hassled. What we are striving for is a National Curriculum through which primary children learn worthwhile knowledge, skills and understanding. Good teaching recognises the need for a range of approaches to learning, one of which should certainly be through enquiry and practical investigation. There is also a need for children to learn through direct teaching, including rote learning. Good teaching draws upon more than one approach.

Nessarose · 02/02/2010 13:10

Hi I would like to know why at one school I was told that my DS1 had not got dyslexia, then when we changed schoolsdue to bullying problams the school he now attends has confirmed he does suffer from it?
The old school did not even test him they just said he was slow.

JimRose · 02/02/2010 13:17

Hi cleanandclothed. I must declare an interest in this question because I have a five year old August born grandaughter who was also premature. We took the decision to start her in the reception class in the September following her fourth birthday.

We had considerable discussion with the school and particularly the reception class teacher. The outcome has been a success story, she would protest strongly if she could not go to school. This owes much to the great expertise of the reception teacher and the other adults who work with her class.

sylar · 02/02/2010 13:18

Do you think there is any argument for boys and girls being taught separately for part of the day? There is evidence that boys and girls learn in very different ways and respond to different forms of teaching.

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