Webchat with Laura Bates, founder of the Everyday Sexism Project and author of Men Who Hate Women, Tuesday 8 September at 12pm

[BojanaMumsnet]

Hello

We’re pleased to announce a webchat with Laura Bates who has just published her latest book, Men Who Hate Women, after going undercover to expose misogynist networks and communities, from incels to pickup artists to men’s rights activists. The book includes interviews with former members of these communities, the academics studying this movement and the men fighting back.

Laura is the founder of the Everyday Sexism Project and author of Everyday Sexism, The Sunday Times bestseller Girl Up, Misogynation and The Burning. Laura writes regularly for The Guardian and the New York Times amongst others. She also works closely with politicians, businesses, schools, police forces and organisations from the Council of Europe to the United Nations to tackle gender inequality. Laura is a contributor at Women Under Siege, a New York-based project tackling rape in conflict worldwide and she is patron of SARSAS, Somerset and Avon Rape and Sexual Abuse Support. She was awarded a British Empire Medal for services to gender equality in the Queen’s Birthday Honours list 2015.

Laura will be joining us live tomorrow, Tuesday 8 September from 12pm for an hour. If you can’t join us then, please do post your question here in advance.

As always, please remember our webchat guidelines - one question per user, follow-ups only if there’s time and most questions have been answered, and please keep it civil. Also if one topic is dominating a thread, mods might request that people don't continue to post what's effectively the same question or point. (We may suspend the accounts of anyone who continues after we've posted to ask people to stop, so please take note.) Rest assured we will ALWAYS let the guest know that it's an area of concern to multiple users and will encourage them to engage with those questions.

Many thanks,
MNHQ

@Annasgirl

HI Laura,

Has your research led to any information to the increase in misogyny coinciding with the increase in internet usage and the dominance of men in the internet and tech industries?

Hi @Annasgirl Yes, the internet definitely seems to be playing a galvanising role in bringing together these extremist communities of men. The internet hasn’t invented misogyny, of course, but it has certainly made it easier for men with these extreme opinions to connect with, and further radicalise one another, as well as providing them a conduit for grooming other men (and boys) to join their cause. It has also made it much easier for them to directly access and abuse women. And of course the internet has also provided opportunities for feminism to flourish, so we are seeing a corresponding backlash, as progress towards gender equality is perceived as a threat by some men. I think the point you raise about male dominance in tech is vital and this is something I explore in detail in the book. When we live our lives online, when we use it for professional networking, rely on it for business promotion, and when young people are increasingly using it as a locus for political debate, it becomes really catastrophic if entire groups of people, like women and other minoritized groups, are essentially barred from accessing these spaces because of horrific online abuse. The fact that tech companies and the developers and overlords of social media platforms are overwhelmingly white men absolutely plays a role in this. Does it mean that they’re deliberately perpetuating abuse or prejudice? No. But do certain blind spots in the development and functionality of these platforms arise from the lack of diversity in their development teams? Yes. And do these blind spots make it easier for the platforms to be co-opted by extremist groups? Yes. It’s not exactly a surprise that social media platforms have become extremely effective tools for abuse and extremist misogyny when you consider, for example, that Facebook first started as a kind of creepy ‘hot or not’ platform to rate girls’ attractiveness. Or that YouTube, which has become a kind of wormhole for teen radicalisation into extreme misogyny and the far-right, is owned by Google, whose 2019 diversity report says that its global workforce is almost 70 percent male, and in the United States, just 5 percent of its workforce is Black
Ultimately I think this means that one of the longer-term solutions to the problem of online misogynistic extremism is to increase diversity in tech and other STEM fields.

@LauraBates re this answer to @nosswith - We at MNHQ are seeing some very similar accounts from our users about the disproportionate impact of COVID on women's lives and are planning to get stuck in - can we pick your brains?

[Post copied in below because we can no longer quote a quote, darn it]

Hi @nosswith

Yes, I’m concerned about the decisions being made by a government which seems to have very few women’s voices in decision making rooms, and one which is led by a man who has made a vast catalogue of sexist and racist statements in the past. Looking at the Coronavirus response is a good microcosm of this I think – we barely ever saw a single woman giving the daily briefings, and from what we know of the groups assembled to tackle the crisis, they were male dominated. As with any decision-making group, this has been reflected in the choices and decisions they have made. After lockdown was imposed it took the government over 2 weeks to announce a domestic violence campaign, for example, suggesting that rather than this being a proactive part of their planning, the potentially devastating impact of lockdown on domestic abuse victims only occurred to them afterwards, when pointed out by advocacy groups and charities. Yes, they reacted at that point with funding and an awareness campaign, but in that 19 day gap, 11 women, 2 children and 1 man had already been killed in suspected domestic abuse cases.)

To give another example, when the government announced that those who had been working from home were expected to get back to work, there was no corresponding concrete plan whatsoever to tackle the fact that there is still vastly less childcare available than would normally be in place, from before and after school clubs to holiday schemes to nurseries and child minders. The closest the government came to addressing this was when Boris Johnson airily said he was “sure employers will agree” to be reasonable if people were unable to come back to work immediately. And of course we know his confidence in employers is misplaced – women were 50% more likely to lose their jobs or quit during lockdown and we already know that 54,000 women a year lose their jobs due to maternity discrimination. I’m really concerned that we are teetering on the brink of a huge rollback of progress in gender equality and this government seems to be presiding over it either without noticing or without caring.

It is only going to get worse through the winter, with the testing system (particularly for those who can’t access drive through tests) often taking over a week for results to come back in my experience and that of dozens of other stories I’ve heard. Young children frequently get spikes in temperature, particularly through the winter, while teething or for a million other reasons. As it stands at the moment millions of parents are going to be stuck at home for repeated lengthy periods (and we know that women tend to take the brunt of this childcare responsibility and the impact on careers.) Do we think employers will still “agree” to support them?

The problem is localised too- in my local area, after the green light for reopening of pubs and playgrounds was announced by the government on the same day, pubs were open again at 6am the following morning, but it took over three weeks for my local authority to open playgrounds, despite the massive impact lockdown had had on child and maternal mental health.

Finally there are other examples where gender clearly hasn’t fed into the decision making process at all- the A level results fiasco being a clear example. Results were based in part on teacher predictions, yet there was no mention of gender bias in the guidance. But we know from repeated international studies that teachers tend to mark girls down and boys up in subjects like maths and science because of gender stereotypes ( www.nber.org/papers/w20909 ). This has been shown to have long term impact on career choices and prospects.

The thing that is most frustrating about all this is that there seems to be barely any coverage of these issues in the mainstream press, and subsequently little pressure on the government to address them.

Phew! It feels good to get that off my chest!

How has doing this research/writing impacted you personally. It's one thing to know incels exist and quite another to enter their woman-hating world. Have you found it's taken a toll on your mental health, or perspectives and if so, how have you dealt with that?

@RoyalCorgi

One of the most distressing stories I've read recently was about Henriett Szucs and Mihrican Mustafa, two young women who were murdered by Zahid Younis. (Explained in detail here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53920575) Sadly, their stories are far from unique. It is now very clear that predators target vulnerable women and girls both because they are easy to exploit and because they know that these women and girls won't be believed by the authorities. Time and time again we hear of vulnerable women being let down by social workers, police and the CPS, with terrible consequences.

What measures can we put in place both to protect women and girls from such predators and to ensure that the authorities take the accounts of abused women and girls seriously?

Hi @royalcorgi I completely agree with you, these and so many other stories show that our criminal justice system is not fit for purpose, and is repeatedly failing victims of sexual and domestic violence. And homeless women, refugee and migrant women, and other vulnerable groups are particularly at risk. And we know that rape conviction rates are disgracefully low. I think we need a multi pronged approach here. I’d suggest supporting EVAW’s judicial review of CPS rape policy ( www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/court-of-appeal-grants-permission-for-judicial-review-of-cps-rape-policy-womens-groups-delighted/ ) as I think there are fundamental systemic issues in the CPS approach to sexual violence survivors that need addressing. I also believe we should be thinking about implicit bias training for jurors. And more widely, the only way to remove widespread victim blaming and sexism from a jury pool and from the judiciary (which, of course is overwhelmingly male dominated) is to remove it from our society at large, which is a longer term and massive project. I think education in schools is a really important place to start.

[quote RowanMumsnet]**@LauraBates* re this answer to @nosswith* - We at MNHQ are seeing some very similar accounts from our users about the disproportionate impact of COVID on women's lives and are planning to get stuck in - can we pick your brains?

[Post copied in below because we can no longer quote a quote, darn it]

Hi @nosswith

Yes, I’m concerned about the decisions being made by a government which seems to have very few women’s voices in decision making rooms, and one which is led by a man who has made a vast catalogue of sexist and racist statements in the past. Looking at the Coronavirus response is a good microcosm of this I think – we barely ever saw a single woman giving the daily briefings, and from what we know of the groups assembled to tackle the crisis, they were male dominated. As with any decision-making group, this has been reflected in the choices and decisions they have made. After lockdown was imposed it took the government over 2 weeks to announce a domestic violence campaign, for example, suggesting that rather than this being a proactive part of their planning, the potentially devastating impact of lockdown on domestic abuse victims only occurred to them afterwards, when pointed out by advocacy groups and charities. Yes, they reacted at that point with funding and an awareness campaign, but in that 19 day gap, 11 women, 2 children and 1 man had already been killed in suspected domestic abuse cases.)

To give another example, when the government announced that those who had been working from home were expected to get back to work, there was no corresponding concrete plan whatsoever to tackle the fact that there is still vastly less childcare available than would normally be in place, from before and after school clubs to holiday schemes to nurseries and child minders. The closest the government came to addressing this was when Boris Johnson airily said he was “sure employers will agree” to be reasonable if people were unable to come back to work immediately. And of course we know his confidence in employers is misplaced – women were 50% more likely to lose their jobs or quit during lockdown and we already know that 54,000 women a year lose their jobs due to maternity discrimination. I’m really concerned that we are teetering on the brink of a huge rollback of progress in gender equality and this government seems to be presiding over it either without noticing or without caring.

It is only going to get worse through the winter, with the testing system (particularly for those who can’t access drive through tests) often taking over a week for results to come back in my experience and that of dozens of other stories I’ve heard. Young children frequently get spikes in temperature, particularly through the winter, while teething or for a million other reasons. As it stands at the moment millions of parents are going to be stuck at home for repeated lengthy periods (and we know that women tend to take the brunt of this childcare responsibility and the impact on careers.) Do we think employers will still “agree” to support them?

The problem is localised too- in my local area, after the green light for reopening of pubs and playgrounds was announced by the government on the same day, pubs were open again at 6am the following morning, but it took over three weeks for my local authority to open playgrounds, despite the massive impact lockdown had had on child and maternal mental health.

Finally there are other examples where gender clearly hasn’t fed into the decision making process at all- the A level results fiasco being a clear example. Results were based in part on teacher predictions, yet there was no mention of gender bias in the guidance. But we know from repeated international studies that teachers tend to mark girls down and boys up in subjects like maths and science because of gender stereotypes ( www.nber.org/papers/w20909 ). This has been shown to have long term impact on career choices and prospects.

The thing that is most frustrating about all this is that there seems to be barely any coverage of these issues in the mainstream press, and subsequently little pressure on the government to address them.

Phew! It feels good to get that off my chest![/quote]
Yes absolutely! This issue is massive and I am furious it seems to be being almost entirely ignored by the government. It's only going to get worse.

Really agree on your thoughts re trans women and intersectional approach

@campeachy

How has doing this research/writing impacted you personally. It's one thing to know incels exist and quite another to enter their woman-hating world. Have you found it's taken a toll on your mental health, or perspectives and if so, how have you dealt with that?

Hi @campeachy

It has been really difficult. While doing my research I kept coming across whole threads or pages devoted specifically to raping and disembowelling me, with men going into extreme detail about internal injuries etc.

I don't think there is a single silver bullet solution to this, sadly, and coping strategies are different for everyone. A strong offline support system helps. My partner is amazing. I drink a lot of .

There was one day when I let myself sit and cry and apart from that I tried to just push on through. It helped me to think that there was a purpose - I was doing this for a reason and putting myself through it for a reason. I really believe we are dealing with an extensive terrorist community, with these men having seriously injured or killed over 100 people in the past 10 years alone, and I really believe what they are doing to thousands of young boys is grooming and radicalisation, yet we don't call it that, we don't monitor it, and when I spoke to high level and government counter extremism sources for the book none of them had ever heard of incels. (Even mumsnet hasn't heard of incels it's trying to auto correct it to incense )

So I was doing it for a reason, I was hoping to force people to see that this problem exists so we can tackle it, and that was what kept me going

Thanks for your reply regarding women's health. I don't know if you use tiktok Laura? There is a certain music audio which people use to tell stories on top of. So many of these stories are around women being ignored by medical professionals. It's a French song not sure which one. But you can see videos by sound and it's really awful to just see streams of videos of women talking about how they nearly died or got seriously ill from being ignored. It's actually quite powerful.

@puffingalong

Hi Laura,

I hadn't heard of incels before I read your book. It feels like more awareness would be a positive! Do you think including the manosphere in school curriculum would be a positive move?

While it's not in the general consciousness, can you suggest age appropriate ways for parents to have this conversation with (late) primary school kids?

Finally, thank you for bringing to our attention something so important!

Hi @puffingalong

Yes I definitely agree we need more awareness - it's mind blowing that these men have carried out a significant number of real-life massacres (often ones people have heard of, like the Toronto van attack) yet so few people have heard of the groups behind them or realise these were actually terrorist attacks by every definition.

Yes, I think including it in the school curriculum would be a great start, and actually just including some broader stuff around gender equality, stereotypes, consent, respectful relationships etc would go a long way as well. Teaching young people about biased media sources online would help too. But teachers are already under huge strain and they need proper funding and support and training to do this effectively.

In terms of speaking to primary school kids, I think absolutely broach it in an age-appropriate way, and my advice with kids is always little and often rather than one big 'scary' conversation. So pointing out gendered signage in toy shops and asking questions about it and about what kind of toys they like. Noticing how the magazines in the supermarket are differentiated by gender and how strange that is, when actually Dad loves cooking or Mummy likes to run, or whatever is relevant to their family. Finding ways to help them learn that gender stereotypes and sexism are things that can be challenged, not norms to be accepted. All that will help prepare them to think critically and be prepared to push back against this stuff later down the line.

@Plussizejumpsuit

Thanks for your reply regarding women's health. I don't know if you use tiktok Laura? There is a certain music audio which people use to tell stories on top of. So many of these stories are around women being ignored by medical professionals. It's a French song not sure which one. But you can see videos by sound and it's really awful to just see streams of videos of women talking about how they nearly died or got seriously ill from being ignored. It's actually quite powerful.

Wow, I'll look for this, thank you!

@Eurotrotters

Hello Laura, thank you for coming on & congratulations on your book.

I find the scale of misogyny demoralising and depressing - and as a parent of an 8yo DD I'm dreading the teenage years and what she may endure. I also have a 5yo DS and I worry about what kind of teenage boy he will become, as my influence will only stretch so far! My question is do you think there is any realistic hope of change and if so, how can this come about?

Hi @Eurotrotters

I think your little ones are already lucky to have you as a parent and your influence will undoubtedly have a huge impact for them.

I definitely have hope! We're already seeing change, we just have to keep fighting. One thing that gives me massive hope is seeing the number of young people at schools who are starting their own feminist societies and working hard to campaign for change in their own communities. At an all boys school recently after I'd given a talk, a group of boys approached me and whispered "We're thinking of forming a feminist society.... are we allowed?" and then excitedly asked lots of advice about how to go about it and how best to support their female peers

At another school I visited it was all girls but some boys from a nearby school were coming in specially for the talk and that morning the girls had seen the boys posting on social media about 'some feminist bitch coming to talk to us' and about their plans to be as disruptive as possible. So the girls asked to leave their last lesson of the morning a few minutes early and arrived at the auditorium before the boys, then spaced themselves out in every other seat throughout the hall. When the boys arrived, they were each forced to sit between two girls, and it took the wind right out of the sails of their disruption and in the end we had a really good and constructive discussion.

At one school in America where girls had been told they couldn't wear yoga pants because they might 'distract the boys' they picketed the school the next day with placards reading "are my pants lowering your test scores?"

Teenage girls are incredibly courageous, resourceful, determined and seeing what they are up to gives me hope for the future!

I've been wondering about whether to suggest outside speakers at my DC's primary school. But then I remember that so many parents are outraged that their children are even being taught about the very basics of sex. I do feel that the line between protecting children/keeping their innocence and not addressing things young people are inevitably going to experience is a problem. ie if you only work out what sex is via surreptitious conversations with buddies aged 9, you're not exactly being set up to have a realistic understanding? Are there programmes re sexism and misogyny and how to avoid them that specifically target younger children?

@RevIMJolly

Hello Laura

Thank you for all your work. You are an inspiration.

What are your views on single sex education?

Hi @RevIMJolly I've spent 8 years going into schools all over the country and I think the picture is really complex - I've visited single sex and mixed sex schools, private and state, rural and inner city, and spoken to all age groups. I've seen various versions of gender inequality and sexism everywhere. I don't think it's possible to say that any one type of school has more of a problem than another or that any are immune. I think the kind of school that is right for any child is very much an individual decision and I think school is just one part of a wider ecosystem that affects children's views and experiences of sexism. I do think we have a massive and completely under-recognised problem of sexual violence in schools that we desperately need to address. (I've written about this here: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/29/epidemic-sexual-assaults-schools-groped-pornographic-images-slags)

@SpaceOP

I've been wondering about whether to suggest outside speakers at my DC's primary school. But then I remember that so many parents are outraged that their children are even being taught about the very basics of sex. I do feel that the line between protecting children/keeping their innocence and not addressing things young people are inevitably going to experience is a problem. ie if you only work out what sex is via surreptitious conversations with buddies aged 9, you're not exactly being set up to have a realistic understanding? Are there programmes re sexism and misogyny and how to avoid them that specifically target younger children?

I know it is really complex but I honestly think it is absolutely possible to have simple, age-appropriate conversations with children about these things from a really young age. If it's not controversial to teach children of nursery age that we don't hit another child, we also should be able to teach them that we respect each other's bodies and everyone gets to choose what happens to their own body - the basic building blocks for consent. I'd recommend It Happens Education and the Good Lad Initiative as providers of strong content on these issues for all age groups.

I’m signing off now (time for some )– thank you all for such an insightful and varied discussion and thank you Mumsnet for having me! If you’d like to buy the book, you can support your local independent bookshop by ordering it from Hive: www.hive.co.uk/Product/Laura-Bates/Men-Who-Hate-Women--From-incels-to-pickup-artists-the-tru/24602154 And the audiobook is available from Audible: www.audible.co.uk/pd/Men-Who-Hate-Women-Audiobook/B08GKYST6P?asin=B08GKYST6P&source_code=ASUOR22208312000KU

The sound on tiktok is by Elizabeth Chetwynd called I'm at ur mom's house

Thanks so much for joining us @LauraBates and thanks to everyone who posted a question. We hope you all enjoyed the webchat - we're going to close the thread now.